jessehuey Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 To all Index climbers: Over the last several years I have realized that there is a legitimate problem with hikers hiking to the top of the index upper wall and throwing rocks, beer bottles, and objects off the top of the wall. This I believe is a serious issue that we as climbers of Index need to address before someone seriously gets hurt or killed. This Sunday my friend and I were climbing Heavens Gate when several microwave size blocks came flying off the top of the wall between the top out of Heavens Gate and Loving Arms. I watched as the rocks exploded about five feet away from the base of the Davis-Holland Route. I couldn’t help but think as to how many times I personally have sat there and have seen parties there eating lunch or racking up. About three minutes later, bread from a discarded sandwich hit us both in the face while we were at the anchor of the second pitch. Both of us shouted up to the top of the wall to no answers from the hikers. When we topped out I had a “conversation” with the two hikers and they seemed both unapologetic and apathetic to the situation they had put us in or to the danger that they were presenting to the climbers below them. About 10 minutes after we left their “company” I heard more boulders and rocks being trundled off the upper wall in the area of Dana’s Arch. So here poses the question. What can we do to prevent this from happening in the future? I would like to open the forum and see what others have to say and then take some form of action to try and stop this problem. The first idea that comes to mind is that we print several reflective signs and post them on 4x4s in concrete at the base of the trail, along the trail, and at the top of the wall. I have looked into the pricing of these signs and have figured it will run about 50 dollars to make and install a sign roughly. These signs would have a stick figure of a climber, and a few words telling the hikers to beware of the climbers below. I am curious as to if anyone has any other ideas they would like to throw out there to remedy the situation and am curious if there are funds available anywhere to conduct a project like this. Any input would be much appreciated on the topic. Lets start the discussion and take action, Sincerely, Jesse Huey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 That really sucks that that happened, and good for you with not completely going ballistic in that situation (it must have been difficult). It seems that the best course of action is to work within the existing relationship between the land manager and climbers to get this dealt with. Those are some pretty constructive and postive ideas when you take into account what you have went through...but we'll still need to get the land managers approval before doing anything there. I'll leave it at that, as there are many people who post here regularly that are way more involved in preserving/protecting climbers access to Index than I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Jesse, I think the "don't throw objects off cliff - climbers below" signs are a very good idea and might even work. This is the sort of thing that the WCC (Washington Climber's Coallition) could/should probably help out with. WCC website edit: So who is the land manager for the UTW? I assume that's part of the state park? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 You showed some serious restraint. My "conversation" with those hikers would have been my foot discussing the effects of a roundhouse kick to the head, Chuck Norris stylie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punter Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I agree with you Jesse. Someone is going to get killed up there (could be a hiker if I catch them chucking rocks off the top). Oct of 2004 we were on Lovin Arms and a party at the top was rolling large rocks off the cliff ~100 feet left of the route. I think the signs should also have some legal ramifications spelled out. Is there an ordinance/law against this? (I could be mistaken making the assumption that these yahoos can actually read) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Indeed, the Washington Climbers Coalition may be able to help out with this matter. My main man Darryl Cramer can help us out with this matter, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) In conjunction with the WCC the Parks Department has placed signs at the top of the Upper Wall. In fact several rounds of sign placement have taken place. The first signs made their way to the bottom of the Upper Wall within a week. I am not sure if the second round has survived the winter. Additionally, efforts were made by the Parks Department to notify ORV groups and the subject was a discussion topic on ORV websites. Rockfall has been a problem for sometime. The area of greatest area of danger is right below the route Tempitchuous. The WCC website is Washingtonclimbers.org. I invite your participation on its discussion board as well as here. Here is a link to the existing WCC topic: Signs Edited February 14, 2006 by DCramer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessehuey Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 Having never really explored around the top I was unaware that there were or are signs up there. I think if we wanted to we could make it really hard for any sign to get ripped out ie. metal fence posts in the rock and mortared in? When were they installed? I like the discussion though. What if we hire a perminate sniper to keep watch on the weekends? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 There is a subset of people who delight in doing whatever signs tell them not to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I believe the new signs were in place as of last July. I have not seen them in place but did see them in the State Parks paint shop before they were installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessehuey Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 OK, It seems that the signs at the cliff are getting ripped out, what if we placed one or two along the trail or (road - I hear there is road access to near the top, not sure though) and hope that people going to the top see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 the solution to signs being destroyed is not to install more signs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) I am not sure that the second signs have been ripped out. I haven’t been to the top of the Upper Wall since early last summer. The plan was to place them along the road approach to the Upper Wall. The Parks Department also tried to close off (barricade) the road leading to the top of the wall. I think I made a couple of posts here on cc.com and several other sites referencing the signs and asking for feedback. The feedback I received seems to indicate that overall object throwing has been reduced. Of course all it takes is one rock/beer bottle/tree to kill someone. Years ago I witnessed a small tree being shot until it broke and then it was thrown off the cliff. Toilets have been hauled to the top and thrown off. The problem goes beyond just placing signs, but I am not sure just where the solution lies. Edited February 14, 2006 by DCramer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 fighting fire with fire worked at squamish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 So, Dru, what's your practical suggestion for improving the situation at UTW -- other than not installing more signs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 a common thing to do, especially in rural areas...to prevent the "Stand By Me" type games played by the local teens, is to put more armor around the mailboxes. My parents have one built out of 1/4 steel and on a cement post that is buried four feet at the base. Are there notices that it is illegal to remove the signs...or is it even illegal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 In Squamish there was a situation in the late 70's with certain town locals stealing ironmongery, and throwing rocks down on climbers. As I was told the story by Jim Sinclair a group of climbers lead by Darryl Hatten (RIP) abducted the ringleader out of the Chieftan beer parlour to a site near Shannon Falls where he was tied to a tree and pelted with rocks until some bones were broken. Large bag of stolen pitons was also recovered from a pool below Shannon Falls into which it had been thrown by the perpetrator(s). End of problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alasdair Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Has anyone written a letter to the sheriff? Write a letter explaing the issue and detail the risks involved and how someone could get killed. Be sure and cc who ever the Sheriffs boss is on the letter and you might just get some reaction. Endangering peoples lifes is a crime and should be dealt with as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 You will not able to stop that type of crowd from trundling. I believe animal beer is the most common form of object thrown off. They aint the type of people who can read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 The Sheriff is an elected official. He's beholden to the electorate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 You will not able to stop that type of crowd from trundling. I believe animal beer is the most common form of object thrown off. They aint the type of people who can read. Aye, the further you can keep their vehicles from the cliff, the less crap will be thrown off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tivoli_mike Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 You will not able to stop that type of crowd from trundling. I believe animal beer is the most common form of object thrown off. They aint the type of people who can read. Perhaps a visit from the "spray squad" is in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessehuey Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 Just got off the phone with the Sheriffs Office, the Lead SAR Sheriff, and the lead State Park Ranger for the Wallace falls area and have some interesting information. Evidently this problem as many of you know has been ongoing along with the quest for a reasonable solution. Here are the issues at hand. The State Park owens to within 300' off the rim of the cliff. This means that legally the State can only close off access to their boundary. The way in which these people are getting to the top is not the trail at all but a 4x4 road that ends several hundred feet from the wall. When approaching the cliff they are on DNR land. The DNR as most of you know are vastly undermaned and financed when it comes to issues like this. Evidently that 4x4 trail has become a political hotbed for the last several years due to this issue of person induced rock fall and the ROV users. Evidently as much as we want to see that road closed, there are ROV users who want to leave it opened. So here is where it stands. The State Park has closed access to the cliff from the 4x4 trail but this is merely on paper and uninforcable. The 4x4 trail is DNR land and is currently open for use for anyone with vehicle capable of driving back there. I believe the solution to the problem is to close that road down by whatever means necessary. There are many places in this state where one can drive a four wheeler while there are very few places that can complete with the quality of index climbing. So signs aren't going to do it in my opinion. I think we need to go to the source and try and talk to the DNR to close that road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 In Squamish there was a situation in the late 70's with certain town locals stealing ironmongery, and throwing rocks down on climbers. As I was told the story by Jim Sinclair a group of climbers lead by Darryl Hatten (RIP) abducted the ringleader out of the Chieftan beer parlour to a site near Shannon Falls where he was tied to a tree and pelted with rocks until some bones were broken. Large bag of stolen pitons was also recovered from a pool below Shannon Falls into which it had been thrown by the perpetrator(s). End of problem. Not enough Hatten and Kit Lewis type climbers these days. I hope this punk ass Sky valley trash have a nice encounter with Bourbon or Cappellini though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I believe the solution to the problem is to close that road down by whatever means necessary. Stihl MS 440 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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