Ethics questions...

[chucK]

Why would anyone (besides the king of spray) argue over the motives of a completely fictional "pulled out of someone's ass" example? Sheesh!

 

Did any interesting information ever get exchanged here about what happens when the FA dies? Do her rights to have the climb left unaltered die with her, or do we still have to get Pope and BWRTS's permissions before we add a bolt?

 

Or has this lovely thread just degenerated into a bunch of random soapboxes loosely categorized under "route development/mainenance"? <-- rhetorical question; that is, no need to reply.

[DCramer]

Well actually ChucK the reason I responded to this thread does indeed have something to do with the initial post. The other day I came to the realization that virtually every route I did in the “trad” style at Index has seen additional bolts placed. Take for example Clay, p1 of NA Overhang or Natural Log Cabin. (Well to be honest I am pretty sure I placed the second bolt non trad style on NLC)

[Dru]

Why would anyone (besides the king of spray) argue over the motives of a completely fictional "pulled out of someone's ass" example? Sheesh!

 

Did any interesting information ever get exchanged here about what happens when the FA dies? Do her rights to have the climb left unaltered die with her, or do we still have to get Pope and BWRTS's permissions before we add a bolt?

 

Or has this lovely thread just degenerated into a bunch of random soapboxes loosely categorized under "route development/mainenance"? <-- rhetorical question; that is, no need to reply.

 

It was not the random example, but the choice of wording I was criticizing. A lack of bolts on a route offering little natural protection would not be regarded as "artificial danger" by anyone except someone who sees frequent bolts as entirely natural.

 

The only case in which a runout route could legitimately be called 'artificially dangerous" would be if someone had filled in cracks with cement.

[chucK]

Well that's cool.

 

How did you feel about your routes being altered?

 

Did anybody get permission from you? (You're not dead yet are you? )

 

Do you feel permission from you negates the necessity to get BWRTS's permission?

 

Do you feel your permission was necessary?

[chucK]

Now that I have begun to temporarily monopolize this thread in earnest, I feel I must respond to you Dru.

 

First of all, I specifically excepted you from criticism in my post. You certainly have made a habit of responding to posts way more inane than the current culprit.

 

Second, GOOD POINT! Though I can think of a lot of other ways to create artificial danger on a route, but to list them would be hypocritical given my recent postings.

[bwrts]

Did any interesting information ever get exchanged here about what happens when the FA dies? Do her rights to have the climb left unaltered die with her, or do we still have to get Pope and BWRTS's permissions before we add a bolt?

now this is good thinking. I will charge $1 per bolt inquiery.

pope will probably charge more.

 

My main arguement is really making me old and tired...

just don't bolt next to gear placements, why is that hard to grasp?

 

If FA dies then I guess we can't get his permission so we are completely fuked on availability to get permission so really the answer in my most humblest opinion is NO, you can't add doggin bolts.

 

And show me a 5.8 route that is more dangerous than a 5.12 route or even a 4th class route. If you fuk up and fall you will get hurt or even killed. Climbing is dangerous...all instruction manuels remind us of that if you read the entire book, that is...

[RuMR]

you can read???

[JayB]

I just love whenever the "5.11 climber putting up 5.8 death routes" comes up . However, we do seem to have migrated away from bringing up all those 5.12 climbers putting up 5.7 death routes. Thank god for that.

 

I agree that this is an imaginary phenomenon, but I think that the complaints about this are just as apt as the frequent lamentations concerning the all of those guys who, seconds after passing the belay test at vertical world, sprint off to the local masonry supply store to buy the cordless-rotohammer and 8lb bucket o' bolts as part of a hell-bent quest to neuter the proud trad routes and runout face-climbs of yore. "It's time to bring indoor climbing to the outdoors, and I'm just the man to do it!!!!!. Time to meet your maker, death routes!!!!!"

 

The other funny thing that often gets brought up is the purported shortage of death-routes to test one's mettle on. Are they really that hard to find? Even at a sport mecca like Smith a quick perusal of the guidebook will reveal scores of X-rated routes available to anyone with an interest in climbing them. Ditto for the dozens of Robbins routes at Vantage, etc, etc.

 

Speaking of imaginary phenomema, one of my personal favorites is that of the platoon full of newbies lining up at the base hatching plots to bolt - say Remorse on SCW -into submission....

[Dru]

Even at a sport mecca like Smith a quick perusal of the guidebook will reveal scores of X-rated routes available to anyone with an interest in climbing them.

 

But all the sub-5.8, X-rated routes with good rock have been retrobolted at Smith! Lollypop League, Squashed Spider, Brogan Spire.. it's shocking!

[JayB]

Looks like it's time to tip a 40 for the passenger pigeon, the dodo, and the last of the death routes in the lower 48. RIP.

[mattp]

We have seen plenty of histrionics, Jay, but to be fair you'd have to agree that when it comes to bolts on crags there is a generally rising tide, no? Attitudes are indeed changing as fewer climbers are interested in risking serious falls and bolts are seen less and less as an anathema to be avoided if at all possible.

[JayB]

The only trend that I've noticed in the past ten years is the rise of bouldering as something pursued intensively as an end in itself by large numbers of climbers.

 

Not sure about the other trends - but I can't say that's anything that I've noticed at the rock - but then I think I've gone sport climbing an average of 2-3 times a year for the last 5 years or more, so who knows?

 

I imagine you've spent even less time at sport-venues, so you must be basing your experience on the behavior of folks that you go climbing with in the mountains and at trad areas? I recall your disbelief at the numbers of people who rap off rather than finish the last few pitches of the standard route on Exfoliation Dome, but those pitches are so moderate and cool that it seems like bailing at the ledge may be more of a time/convenience issue than a consequence of the wholesale wussification of the climbing public.

[DCramer]

In some cases they were improvements. For example on NLC there was a KB protecting a 5.10 move. If it pulled you would have quite possibly hit the deck from 40’ up. When the KB was new it was bomber, but how long was it new? No one asked permission for this, but why bother asking; it seems the safe thing to do. With regard to replacing a critical pin with a bolt I don’t think that my permission matters. If I was to say no, I should be ignored. The first bolt on the route was placed on lead and consequently was not in the best position. I think someone may have asked about changing it, but can’t remember if it was before or after. A few bolts were added near the top replacing some pins not sure what I think of that because I can hardly remember what it’s like up there. It was done before the days of small TCUs.

 

In other cases am not sure that the additions were improvements. For example , one route had bolts added to a section we climbed clean and was once called “the best new route” at Index (post bolting.) Anyway once a friend asked what I was frustrated about and I said I wasn’t sure. To my knowledge not one climber ever climbed it when a tied off pin (not fixed) protected the crux. Now it has had a bunch of ascents – in short I am somewhat conflicted over this one, but leaning towards the “its cool people are doing the route” side.

 

Changing gears slightly I was completely against the bolt(s) added to JG/10% but everyone seems to like them. I have read a bunch of TRs saying they climbed the first pitch of JG. This was never the top of a pitch. Clint added the p1 short notation in his guide despite my objections. The anchor was an old bolt to protect a wide section and a pin several feet below. It is now two chains. On a crowded day I am guessing that the bolts are well used and probably a good addition. I have never been a big sport climber, the last 5 pitches I have cleaned at Index have had 3 bolts placed. I think the bolted crack argument is for the most part pretty weak. I guess if Numbah 10, a bad example in my opinion, is the poster route, things can’t be so bad considering Max bolted it almost 20 years ago! New Crags as express developments for the masses are something JH and I do agree on. At the initial WCC meeting I voiced my opinion on how these were bad for climbing. Not every area needs to be extensively developed. Part of the tradeoff I am willing to make is that some areas like Index have some chains I am not fond of while others are left less developed. Several years ago I was climbing at Banks Lake (early 90s) and we had a bolt gun and plenty of bolts. We approached the area on foot and in the heat and with all the prickers and scrambling we kept joking about being in Africa. When it came down to actually bolting a route we decided to just do TRs (one was multi-pitch) and leave our Africa undeveloped. The trade-off philosophy in action I guess.

 

 

Matt - as far as your rising tide at Index the last ten years has been pretty quiet. The last explosion of bolting was by a climber who was retro-bolting his own routes and was in no way a product of the gym enviroment.

[JosephH]

DCramer,

 

"You are clearly saying that it was the norm that people chose not to do FA if they would require a pin or bolt."

 

I was responding to this statement which is not at all what I was saying...

 

My point with regard to S. Platte, GOG, etc., is that if you look at the complete list of FA's put up from 73-79 you'd find that the number that were put up in a non-clean ethic were a distinct minority, but again that ethic never dictated that no fixed pro ever be used, but that it be used judiciously and only when absolutely necessary and the common interpretation of that ethic certainly understood that would mean many mixed routes for some rock/crags.

 

I'm not and never was an extreme purist in the Jim Erickson or Chuck Nichols mold and there were never more than a handful that were. In thirty one years of climbing I've nailed only a handful of pins, drilled only a few bolts and those only for anchors never for pro on a route; we always put the rock first and only compromised it with fixed pro when we considered a line was way beyond simply worthy. And Matt, not only do I think that it's a good idea to "throw themselves at an unclimbed line, only to repeatedly fall...", it's my idea of a good time.

 

Case in point, last fall we put up a mixed 5.11c-R five pitch route that was very much in keeping with groundup ethics, honored the rock, and kept with long-standing local traditions ( it's R rated as one crux is over a disconcerting, but basically safe flake that has to be "set" before being used, not because of runouts). It went up as a 5.10d C1 with three single points of aid, falls from loose blocks that cut, and several on an initial crux variation that will likely never go free; we did the FFA a couple of weeks later and had to come up with an entirely different crux variation. It also now "sports" several pins that were retro'd in after the the route was put up (and much discussion) because I put up several of the [free] pitches on a string of Crack'N Ups and #1/#2 Lowe/Byrne Balls. Neither of which is commonly available (the Camp/Trango ball nuts aren't near the tools the Lowe or Lowe/Byrne ones are) and after talking with other long time Beacon climbers (all with a clean ethic) we made the decision to put in several pins where the alternative was gear that is no longer commonly available. And last but not least it sports decent anchors as several of the belays were also pretty damn sketchy. It's now basically safe, but as far as I know no one's been back up it since.

 

DCramer, I suspect we just had different experiences you out here and me further East. I've never had the priviledge of climbing in either JTree or Index but I have my suspicions you are probably one of the sandbagging bastards with stout runout routes we always heard about when talk did turn to Index and Squamish.

[bwrts]

Attitudes are indeed changing as fewer climbers are interested in risking serious falls and bolts are seen less and less as an anathema to be avoided if at all possible.

not true. go to devils lake in Wisc===> no bolts allowed.

go to Eldo in boulder...lots of bold climbing is repeated.

Go to Ebe in Germany... fuk they don't even use shoes or chalk there.

See many bolts at Devils Tower?

See many bolts on Mars?

how about the moon?

fuk, I hate work and ethicial debates.

[JosephH]

DCramer,

 

Thanks for TR'ing out at Banks - I haven't made it out there either but it's definitely high on the list. My partners and I are also pretty ardent about not bolting top ropeable climbs. I've never understood the hypocrisy of saying we bolt because we want to focus on the physical movement, and then bolt a topropeable climb that would have let them focus entirely on the movement without posing occasionally to clip a bolt.

[chucK]

I just love whenever the "5.11 climber putting up 5.8 death routes" comes up . However, we do seem to have migrated away from bringing up all those 5.12 climbers putting up 5.7 death routes. Thank god for that.

 

I agree that this is an imaginary phenomenon, but I think that the complaints about this are just as apt as the frequent lamentations concerning the all of those guys who, seconds after passing the belay test at vertical world, sprint off to the local masonry supply store to buy the cordless-rotohammer and 8lb bucket o' bolts as part of a hell-bent quest to neuter the proud trad routes and runout face-climbs of yore. "It's time to bring indoor climbing to the outdoors, and I'm just the man to do it!!!!!. Time to meet your maker, death routes!!!!!"

 

The other funny thing that often gets brought up is the purported shortage of death-routes to test one's mettle on. Are they really that hard to find? Even at a sport mecca like Smith a quick perusal of the guidebook will reveal scores of X-rated routes available to anyone with an interest in climbing them. Ditto for the dozens of Robbins routes at Vantage, etc, etc.

 

Speaking of imaginary phenomema, one of my personal favorites is that of the platoon full of newbies lining up at the base hatching plots to bolt - say Remorse on SCW -into submission....

 

Well, these do sound like silly things to say. Can't say I've heard people saying these things, and I don't think they've been mentioned in this thread. However, it could be that your trademark flowery hyperbole is obscuring what I'm supposed to be looking for.

 

I have heard tales of at least two NW underqualifieds armed with Bosch going at it without much restraint at Smith and Vantage. Maybe that's what you're referring to in paragraph 1.

[JosephH]

bwrts,

 

The places you mentioned bolting it prohibited by government regulations and policing and all had their bolting skirmishes (I'd have to check with my DL buddies on that one as that shit is almost too hard to drill...).

[mattp]

Joseph, you certainly get extra points if you are putting up routes in that style. Especially if they turn out to be viewed as "good routes." In such a case, not only would you have had a great day or days yourself, but you'd have set a good example for "style" and you'd have created something that others can enjoy!

 

Added on edit:

 

Back on page 2 of this thread I thought you were arguing that one should put up routes however they want to with no regard for those who may follow, or something like that.

 

Does your discussion with other climbers, and your immediate retrofitting the route with pins and (I'm guessing) bolts at belays, some of it in lieu of hardware that other climbers may not be carrying, indicate that maybe I misunderstood your position somewhat?

Edited August 25, 2005 by mattp

[bwrts]

bwrts,

 

The places you mentioned bolting it prohibited by government regulations and policing and all had their bolting skirmishes (I'd have to check with my DL buddies on that one as that shit is almost too hard to drill...).

yeah the quartzite is hard and there are lots of cracks so why bolt is what the locals decided on...

the sandstone quarry wall is where the wars occurred, from what I remember talking to locals there when I was there last.

I plan on going this labor weekend as I am visiting my grams and gramp then...

I will ask some more if I do make it up there.

Also, the bold routes in Eldo were put up bold and remain bold.

I remember a R&I or Climbing Rag depicting such routes a few years ago...

also may have mentioned Black hills, SD areas.

[JayB]

I just love whenever the "5.11 climber putting up 5.8 death routes" comes up . However, we do seem to have migrated away from bringing up all those 5.12 climbers putting up 5.7 death routes. Thank god for that.

 

I agree that this is an imaginary phenomenon, but I think that the complaints about this are just as apt as the frequent lamentations concerning the all of those guys who, seconds after passing the belay test at vertical world, sprint off to the local masonry supply store to buy the cordless-rotohammer and 8lb bucket o' bolts as part of a hell-bent quest to neuter the proud trad routes and runout face-climbs of yore. "It's time to bring indoor climbing to the outdoors, and I'm just the man to do it!!!!!. Time to meet your maker, death routes!!!!!"

 

The other funny thing that often gets brought up is the purported shortage of death-routes to test one's mettle on. Are they really that hard to find? Even at a sport mecca like Smith a quick perusal of the guidebook will reveal scores of X-rated routes available to anyone with an interest in climbing them. Ditto for the dozens of Robbins routes at Vantage, etc, etc.

 

Speaking of imaginary phenomema, one of my personal favorites is that of the platoon full of newbies lining up at the base hatching plots to bolt - say Remorse on SCW -into submission....

 

Well, these do sound like silly things to say. Can't say I've heard people saying these things, and I don't think they've been mentioned in this thread. However, it could be that your trademark flowery hyperbole is obscuring what I'm supposed to be looking for.

 

I have heard tales of at least two NW underqualifieds armed with Bosch going at it without much restraint at Smith and Vantage. Maybe that's what you're referring to in paragraph 1.

 

That's an interesting anecdote.

 

Care to:

 

1. Name the people.

2. Name the routes.

3. Define underqualified.

4. Identify the existing routes which were damaged by their actions.

5. Explain how any of the above inhibits anyone's ability to climb bold routes anywhere?

 

"Can't say I've heard people saying these things, and I don't think they've been mentioned in this thread."

 

Right. No one has ever voiced such opinions in this thread, this forum, or anywhere else. I invented them.

 

"Now climbers think that they have a right to climb anything and if it is too scary then they think they should add a bolt. Bullshit. Sack up or keep off. Pretty simple huh? Do you want your generation of climbing to take the risk away? Wow, what a proud concept, to stand up and say, "My generation of climberrs took the gym outside and wee retrobolted old routes to make them safer" Proud indeed...."

 

With respect to prose styles obsuring one's points - what exactly is yours? I am honestly not sure why you bothered to post anything to this thread at all, but for the chance to chime in with the - cough - trademark - cough- snarky/passive agressive one-liner, usually some variant on the "strawman" standby, and to provide a vague bit rhetorical applause for anyone who articulates positions that you seem to agree with but never manage to state directly some reason. To be clear - what I am talking about is statements/arguments where the central claims are that bolts/sport-routes/sport-climbing are for pussies and/or have lead to a progressive degredation of a sport once reserved for a select few.

 

I've always taken issue with these arguments for a variety of reasons, but at least guys like Pope and others will actually come out and say what they think instead of giggling in the backround and playing rhetorical towel-boy for those that do.

 

I hope my flowery hyperbole in this post did not impair your ability to comprehend what I wrote.

[DCramer]

JH - I can distinctly remember the "if you can't do it without a bolt wait for the better man" argument. Another one was along the lines of "the real clean climbers will approach a big wall with only clean gear no hammers." This strict clean approach was advocated by many. The way I see your approach is that it becomes meaningless => "I climb clean unless I need pins or bolts." This is pretty much what we have today. The problem is that each climber is left to make the decision as to whether a pin or bolt is needed. Arguments between climbers just turn into some form of the statement "you're a pussy" tempered by the occasional "I made an erorr in judgement." Read Matt_M's post earlier in this thread he seemed to clearly be hearing a voice saying "all you pussies." I would like to believe that there is less judgemental approach available to help climbers get along better not only with other climbers but also land manager's and other users.

 

Banks Lake is pretty cool I have never climbed any of the boat stuff and climbed solely on the shore across from the park. If I can find it, I'll post a scan of the rock and a crag.

 

From your description you are certainly thinking of another Cramer.

Edited August 25, 2005 by DCramer

[matt_m]

A lot of good points here. Here's my issue with the "modern bolting" debate. DC was right in that I read many of the "old school" comments as people who support "modern" bolting are pussies. I state this outright: Grid bolting has NO PLACE in climbing. Nor does retro bolting established bold climbs. Spacing 4 feet between bolts is embarrassing as well. I however do not stick to the "bolting only as a last resort" arena either. I fall in between. My major issue with the claims that the old proud way is best is that it defies my logic. Take very bold slab climbing - I've got some experience with this so I'll stay close to this area. Old school run outs are part climbing lore and as such should remain, for the most part, un-touched. I'll get to exceptions in a moment. I enjoy comparing my mettle to those of past years. Like stated before - If you're not up to match mettle don't climb it. The caveat here is that the "Nature" of the slab route is fairly bold throughout the climb. When you get on it you know you're going to be in the thick of it for a while. Where I have issues with older routes is when the "boldness" is not in the nature of the climb. 800 feet of protect-able cracks with one section of X climbing because someone didn't place a bolt is seems pointless to me. (Preserving the rock as a resource is another debate and I'm not going to muddle the topic with it - it is a valid debating point however) I compare this "old an bold" belief to war tactics. In the civil war, they all lined up in a row and got shot. Only later did tactics include "defilade" to preserve troops. Looking back we wonder - why the hell did they line up like that? I do the same thing sometimes - Why would you put yourself in extreme peril? I'm not talking a simply risky situation where a fall could do limited damage - I'm talking falls with badly broken bones and dying as consequences. Why? It makes no sense. Very few climbers are in the sport to cheat maiming and death. That's not proud that's stupid. (Note here: I am NOT a product of the gym although I am not "old" either. I started in the Gunks pre gyms and apprenticed etc etc. No I don't think climbing should be a "safe" sport - Hardly in fact.) What I see as the issue is those that hold onto old "questionable risk" ethics vs those that appreciate the place for both old AND new. Again - grid bolting is not what I am advocating. I HATE gym climbers that have no clue how dangerous climbing can be or believe is should be safe. I guess you'd say I'm a believer in "risk within reason". The newer climbs on the Apron (squeezing aside) are examples of this - I did one newer pitch there (10d?) where the bolting spacing was ~ 15 feet. Still scary but not the sh_t your pants look like a motorcycle accident runouts like on the 10ds on Dream On (I bailed left into Anxiety State) Both were great climbs and I'd do both again BUT I'd be pretty critical of someone who put up another Dream On style route. It would be like lining up Civil War style after learning better war skills.

 

ehh... short attention span setting in - critique away...

[JosephH]

JH - I can distinctly remember the "if you can't do it without a bolt wait for the better man" argument. Another one was along the lines of "the real clean climbers will approach a big wall with only clean gear no hammers." This strict clean approach was advocated by many. The way I see your approach is that it becomes meaningless => "I climb clean unless I need pins or bolts." This is pretty much what we have today. The problem is that each climber is left to make the decision as to whether a pin or bolt is needed. Arguments between climbers just turn into some form of the statement "you're a pussy" tempered by the occasional "I made an error in judgement."

 

I know of next to no one from Colorado to New Hampshire to North Carolina that took the clean climbing ethic to the extreme of meaning no fixed pro ever; in my experience it was always gear and judicious use of fixed pro only when absolutely warranted by an outstanding line. I did climb with Ken Nichols on a couple of weekends in CT and was witness to one of his [clever] hookfests, but Ken can be an extreme operator as we all know. That doesn't mean any of us climbed with a hammer or drill, it meant we might come back with one if a route we thought a route truly [if rarely] warranted a piece of fixed pro; again, I placed one pin and no bolts for protection in thirty years until last fall when I placed a couple of pins that were in keeping with local ethics and rock (and in consultation with long time folks, as while its my adopted home, it's not my original home area). "Judicious" is the operative word and one that humans in general have a hard time with as a species in most aspects of life, not just climbing. If chalk and fixed pro were used "judiciously", as in only when absolutely necessary, things would be a lot less complicated in general as far as I'm concerned. But there has always been a subjective personal and community give and take around the clean ethic both between individuals and different crags. Also, the "community" was significantly smaller then if you recall and some semblence of consensus did tend to emerge at each crag relative to a shared interpretation - next to no one operated under absolutes. Part of the problem to day is there are so many [different/gym] climbers, factions, commercial interests, etc. that consensus is now getting to be very difficult to reach without government intervention - which is pretty much the only way areas are currently being protected from bolting.

 

Read Matt_M's post earlier in this thread he seemed to clearly be hearing a voice saying "all you pussies." I would like to believe that there is less judgemental approach available to help climbers get along better not only with other climbers but also land manager's and other users.

 

Not at all, but to be completely blunt once again, I think the issue in reality is more about sheer population numbers and resource constraints than courage, style, or ethics. Before sport climbing and gyms somewhere between 50-70% of today's climbers wouldn't be climbers and the problem isn't really meeting the needs of those among them that become really skilled so much as providing "safe" [non-runout 5.8's] venues for the majority of these folks year in, year out, though bolting by talented sport climbers is not without issues when they come to trad areas. And again, I'm not sure that talking is necessarily a much of a solution beyond a sauve with the raw numbers we're currently dealing with. A certain percentage at this point are going to be dead set on recreating the gym experience outside regardless of what is said and damage will continue to be done. Witness "ignorance [is] bliss" up in your neck of the woods; a fine piece of work and a quite natural extension/expression of this trend and stats.

 

Banks Lake is pretty cool I have never climbed any of the boat stuff and climbed solely on the shore across from the park. If I can find it, I'll post a scan of the rock and a crag.

 

That would be great, I've been pretty hyped up about that place since an article back in the late 80's.

 

From your description you are certainly thinking of another Cramer.

 

Obviously...

[JosephH]

Joseph, you certainly get extra points if you are putting up routes in that style. Especially if they turn out to be viewed as "good routes." In such a case, not only would you have had a great day or days yourself, but you'd have set a good example for "style" and you'd have created something that others can enjoy!

 

Added on edit:

 

Back on page 2 of this thread I thought you were arguing that one should put up routes however they want to with no regard for those who may follow, or something like that.

 

Does your discussion with other climbers, and your immediate retrofitting the route with pins and (I'm guessing) bolts at belays, some of it in lieu of hardware that other climbers may not be carrying, indicate that maybe I misunderstood your position somewhat?

 

Matt, in this case I did put it up in my own style without regard for others which was free leading on Crack'N Ups and Lowe/Byrne balls, no pre-cleaning, and making do with some pretty lousy belays. But that's me and not the tradition of the area that's my adopted home, I retro'd the pins / anchors in line with local tradition and in consultation with long standing climbers from the area. I have a ton of respect for all those folks, the routes they did, and the style/ethic they put them up with. More an homage and contribution to their climbing legacy than my own after climbing and benefiting from their routes for so many years. It was a wild adventure I hadn't had in awhile on such initially raw terrain and am pretty damn grateful for the opportunity to have done it. Had I done it twenty years ago I'd like to believe I would have made exactly the same choices then.