Islamist Fanatic or Anti-Globalization Activist?

[JayB]

You make the call...

 

"Oh people of the West, don’t be fooled by the lies of Blair and Bush that you are free nations, for the only freedom that you have is the freedom to be slaves of your whims and desires. Your children are free to be deprived of their childhood and their innocence. Your women are free to be used as tools of business and entertainment, and all of you as a whole are the slaves of con men and women who rule you. They are your real enemies. If you only knew – they are the ones who drag your countries to the pit of America’s group of scavengers, who seek to ravage the entire globe for the interests of a handful of gangsters and corporate companies. Democracy, human rights, and freedom are all but hollow illusions, with which they tranquilize inhabitants of the human farms which they control."

[foraker]

Pretty much true, it's just the part where they start talking about blowing up innocent civilians as part of furthering God's Great Plan that I have problems with it....

(of course, to some, that sounds like what Dubya is doing in Iraq)

[foraker]

oddly enough, come to think of it, he/she sounds like a libertarian...

[JayB]

"Democracy, human rights, and freedom are all but hollow illusions, with which they tranquilize inhabitants of the human farms which they control."

 

Word. We would have been, like, way better off The WWII generation could have saved themselves the trouble of dying by the millions to prop-up these transparent falsehoods. Now we're like, all slaves of the, like, corporate state and have to sit around listening to all of these, like, sheep, drinking their corporate slave coffee, and playing their homogenized corporate music while they're like, commuting in their little, like, commuting en masse in their corporate lemming vessels while trying to fulfill their little corporate dreams, maaan. Weak.

[foraker]

I'm not sure if he means the concepts of "democracy, human rights, and freedom" are illusions (probable) or if he is talking about how they manifest themselves in, say, the US, UK, etc (less likely). More than a little axe grinding is obvious. ;-)

[Stonehead]

"democracy, human rights, and freedom"

 

There does seem to be an ideal version of these aspirations but the reality sometimes comes across as a degenerate semblance. This is the best of all possible worlds.

[JayB]

I think that the Islamists would get a much more favorable reception if they were to couch all of their arguments in "Hey, Hey, Ho, Ho" chants.

 

Of course, they've already won over a signficant fraction of the West's self-annointed "Progressives" to their cause in Iraq, so perhaps they should stick to the bombings, beheadings, and fatwas that have served their cause so well thus far.

 

What I like best about the evolution of this situation is observing the process whereby the more vigorous the assault that the Islamists launch on both Western civilization and its values, the more ready certain elements - who could literally only exist within the political, moral, and legal framework that evolved in the West - are inclined not only to agree with them, but to one-up their critiques and restate them in more strident terms.

 

I hope I live long enough to see this process arrive at its ironic climax, and get to personally witness scores of women in Berkely demonstrating on behalf of making the Bhurka compulsory dress for all women in public, activists so laden with self-loathing and guilt that they begin to travel to predominanty Muslim countries and clamour loudly for their own beheadings, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Thinker]

Has anyone else read Tariq Ali's "Clash of Fundamentalisms"?

[Stonehead]

A long time ago I read some Lewis Mumford or someone like that, who said that technological progress produces societal upheavals. Perhaps the fundamentalism that we are seeing from "both sides of the world" are a reaction to that change, I mean, look at all the technological 'development' we've seen in the last 50 years (most of it for the better?).

[foraker]

lemme guess where you draw the line regarding these "certain elements"....everyone to the left of you? just a guess... maybe you need to realize that america isn't a big gym filled with two kinds of people all crammed up against one wall or another but is more like a whole bunch of people milling about with more closer to the center than towards the walls.... i can live with fringe liberals (and i don't use the term pejoratively, unlike some...hint,hint) who utter what i consider to complete nonsense because i have a common vision of america that includes them. i can also live with fringe conservatives who espouse views i find to be an anathema to a united america. i don't hate either group because i know neither group represents a significant number of americans. if i would like to see one thing, though, it would be a dissolution of political parties or, at least, de-monopolization of the political power in this country. in such a situation, it's too easy for one side to demonize the other, just as we see now. if there were more targets, or none, i suspect (or, rather, hope) we might see a lot less polarization and more reliance upon the relative merits of ideas. what does this have to do with radical islam? oh, not much. just tired of reading things by people who need a good chew toy or something.

[prole]

Sure JB, those in this country that question the quality of our political system, the current leadership's commitment to democracy at home and abroad, the increasing power of corporations to frame debates and set domestic policy, the commodification of women's bodies, etc, etc., the degradations of mind, body, and spirit, the environment wreaked by the globalization of capitalism are just simple-minded idealists, morons, or worse, terrorist sympathizers, enemies! They must be silenced! Or more likely, ridiculed on obscure message boards by dumb rednecks with half-baked analyses that watch to much TV. Hey, be sure to mention "The Road to Serfdom" again so we know you're serious!

[flashpoint01]

Wow, Its great I saw this I love bitching about things. First off if you have a Problem with our ELECTED officials then its your own damn fault. You probably weren't out there rockin the vote for who ever you wanted elected. You just sat back and hoped it would turn out for the best. Thats bullshit. Why are blaming someone else for our situations. I blame only myself that gregwhore was elected, i don't buy into the whole recount bull. I wasn't out there pushing for Rossi like i could have been. Lets remember that all of our ELECTED officals were hire by us the votes. And Amereica wanted bush. Now Back to the big issue blaming others for our situation. Its no ones fault but our own if we are slaves to our dreams and desires, or if our women are free to be used as tools of business and entertainment. All this persons complaints are bull. They are due to our decisions. We are slaves because we want to be, and its up to you, the individual, to change your life. Break out from the norm, stand up for what you belive and, and make a change in our country. Stop blaming! Everyone love blaming someone else to relive them of personal resposibility.

 

Finally blaming others for our situations is like saying:

ITS NOT ME, ITS MY PENCIL THAT SPELLS BAD.

its our decision

[foraker]

so what you're saying is that we get the government we deserve. gee, at least be original. what you're basically saying is that politicians should have no personal accountability when they fuck us over because we basically begged them to do it. hell, we gave them a 'mandate from the masses'! you should remember that half of america didn't want bush. if we can't blame politicians for anything, i guess you should stop blaming clinton for everything bad in the last 5 years, eh?

[j_b]

that somewhat similar observations be made by people with otherwise very dissimilar aspirations tells you what?

[Stefan]

You make the call...

 

"Oh people of the West, don’t be fooled by the lies of Blair and Bush that you are free nations, for the only freedom that you have is the freedom to be slaves of your whims and desires. Your children are free to be deprived of their childhood and their innocence. Your women are free to be used as tools of business and entertainment, and all of you as a whole are the slaves of con men and women who rule you. They are your real enemies. If you only knew – they are the ones who drag your countries to the pit of America’s group of scavengers, who seek to ravage the entire globe for the interests of a handful of gangsters and corporate companies. Democracy, human rights, and freedom are all but hollow illusions, with which they tranquilize inhabitants of the human farms which they control."

 

How many Islamic fundamentalists are considered monetarily wealthy?

 

I read an underlying tone of jealousy.

[prole]

"I read an underlying tone of jealousy."

 

Is this because the totality of human experience, desire, and aspiration since the dawn of creation can be reduced to the accumulation of Rogaine, electronic pets, and custom car mufflers? I mean yeah, like, these guys just want a piece of the pie right? Nope, Bin Laden was loaded and fanatics are drawn from all social sectors. While poverty certainly plays a role (many "fundamentalist" organizations form social fabrics that meet the material needs of the, often poor, communities in which they operate), it may be better to look towards the broad frustration with the inability to carve out anything that looks like self-determination in light of almost 100 years of Western imperialism, the failures of Arab nationalism/socialism, and continuing erosion of their values/social system under the seemingly chaotic processes of capitalist economic penetation and military and diplomatic aggression. Religion is bound to play a key role when other oppositional points of reference are lacking. Ask yourself, why does religious fundamentalism form the primary means for expessing dissent NOW in India, the Middle East, SE Asia, and parts of Africa and the US, when at previous points in history it did not?

[klenke]

I'm deeply offended...

...deeply offended that the fanatic/activist did not mention CC.com as an example in his diatribe.

I will never get over this.

[cj001f]

How many Islamic fundamentalists are considered monetarily wealthy?

 

I read an underlying tone of jealousy.

 

Good old narcissism. After all, who doesn't want an SUV, a big screen and a house on a culdesac?

[Stefan]

"I read an underlying tone of jealousy."

 

Is this because the totality of human experience, desire, and aspiration since the dawn of creation can be reduced to the accumulation of Rogaine, electronic pets, and custom car mufflers? I mean yeah, like, these guys just want a piece of the pie right? Nope, Bin Laden was loaded and fanatics are drawn from all social sectors. While poverty certainly plays a role (many "fundamentalist" organizations form social fabrics that meet the material needs of the, often poor, communities in which they operate), it may be better to look towards the broad frustration with the inability to carve out anything that looks like self-determination in light of almost 100 years of Western imperialism, the failures of Arab nationalism/socialism, and continuing erosion of their values/social system under the seemingly chaotic processes of capitalist economic penetation and military and diplomatic aggression. Religion is bound to play a key role when other oppositional points of reference are lacking. Ask yourself, why does religious fundamentalism form the primary means for expessing dissent NOW in India, the Middle East, SE Asia, and parts of Africa and the US, when at previous points in history it did not?

 

Religion plays a larger role in poverished areas. True. Europe has one of the least people considered "religious". Why? Most of the government has taken up the socialist causes to take care of people whereas it used to be the church.

 

Can't answer why dissent is going on now in MidEast. Poverty has always been a staple in Africa, and yet you did not hear much "terrorist" acts in previous years. There has always, always been fighting in Africa. One band against another. Even before British, French, and Belgium influence.

 

Maybe it is the images they see.

 

When I was in Pakistan several years ago. I was confronted by the Baltis in their typical banter. They loved to sit around and talk. They kept asking me, "Why is that we are so poor and yet we work so hard?"

[JayB]

Sure JB, those in this country that question the quality of our political system, the current leadership's commitment to democracy at home and abroad, the increasing power of corporations to frame debates and set domestic policy, the commodification of women's bodies, etc, etc., the degradations of mind, body, and spirit, the environment wreaked by the globalization of capitalism are just simple-minded idealists, morons, or worse, terrorist sympathizers, enemies! They must be silenced! Or more likely, ridiculed on obscure message boards by dumb rednecks with half-baked analyses that watch to [sic] much TV. Hey, be sure to mention "The Road to Serfdom" again so we know you're serious!

 

With the exception of the "must be silenced" bit, I'd have to agree with you if it weren't for the fundamental distortion of the actual positions that we are talking about. Yes, the Islamists, bless their hearts, are indeed terribly upset about the commodification of women's bodies - as evinced by the honor killings, the stoning of pregnant women to death, the forced circumcission, the handy "I divorce thee" x3 precedent in the sharia that leaves women destitute and pennyless, the absence of the right to vote, to drive, etc - so it is completely natural and sensible for those who are horrified by the commodification of women's bodies here in the West to simultaneously hold their tongues with respect to the condition of women in the Muslim world, blather on about the moral equivalence of the two civilizations and the condition of women within them, and redirect their focus to the equally dreadful outcomes that ensue when women who choose to make their living by taking their clothes off are free to do so. It's just a shame that England's cultural sensitivities weren't refined by these fine sentiments in the days of the suttee. Sadly that gem of cultural diversity is already all but lost to the world.

 

Ditto for the "degradations of mind, body, and spirit, the environment wreaked by the globalization of capitalism," which are certainly in striking contrast to the splendid condition of all of the above under the various totalitarianisms or squalid paleosocialist kleptocracies that adorn or have adorned the globe at one time or another. Many things are uncertain in this world, but I am absolutely convinced that all of the citizens of the aforementioned countries take a profound measure of solace in the fact that their illiteracy, poverty, subjugation, and starvation are at least keeping the menace of being a slave to corporate interests at bay. That certainly explains the patterns of immigration we've witnessed for the past 100 years, the condition of the environment in England relative to anywhere in an equally populous region of China or the Soviet Union, and the fact that it has generally required nothing short of turning every socialist wonderland into a literal penitentiary in order to prevent the entire population from fleeing en masse.

 

Anyhow - back to me. I regret to admit that I actually don't even own a functioning TV, and will spend the next three years working on ways to rapidly identify and characterize compounds that disable a recently characterized protein that's critical for the progression of a disease that's killing off several million people a year. What is it that you do with your time?

 

And finally, you mentioned something about being serious, and on that note I have a serious senior/thesis project for you: Demonstrate that both economic calculation and the coordination of supply and demand are possible in the absence of market prices. Once you have demonstrated that those who presented this as an insurmountable difficulty confronting anyone looking to actually implement socialism, were in fact incorrect, I will gladly join you in your quest to jettison the present social, poltical, and economic order in favor of a superior alternative.

 

Ta,

[foraker]

how's that state-sponsored research program working out for ya?

[JayB]

It's no secret where the state gets its money - not to me, at least. One of the primary benefits of private enterprise is that the accumulation of material wealth it produces generates the tax revenues necessary for funding for activities that, while sustained by profits elsewhere, could never be profitable in their own right. Three cheers for the Laffer Curve.

[klenke]

Jay, question: do you write your longer responses on a different computer tool (email, Word, etc.) and then transfer them to cc.com or do you write them all in cc.com? If the latter I'm impressed as the damn back-button "erase" problem zaps my posts into oblivion at least once per fortnight. If I had written a couple of paragraphs like yours I'd be seriously pissed if I lost it to the vast pit of cyber death.

[ChrisT]

[klenke]

But it was a serious question...sort of.