Iron Horse Full

[RuMR]

oh look...there you are...fuck you again...

 

but back to the point...so lets see...banging the fuck out of so that you can get rps/fingers in with a pin is considered "preserving" the rock, yet a 3/8" hole w/ a stud isn't??? hmmm...lost me on that one somehow...

 

hey, btw... are you one of those yesteryear icons? just wondering

[RuMR]

...he completely avoided my arguments about pins vs. bolts with a circumnavigating post

 

 

i pretty much agree with you except if the route was protected with pins

 

etc. etc. Nobody suggested pins are better than bolts (although I believe they are). A route like Numbah Ten aids on nuts. Many of those slots (#2 RP if I recall) were created by pins. I think the route could be climbed free with RP protection now (even if rap placed) and it would be ten times the accomplishment that it now is. The trail of bolts leading up that climb is in no way an improvement on the pin scars that make nutting possible.

 

i'm now responding in spray with spray....see you there, dork...

[pope]

Now think about it, OffWhitey, if I'm a fundamentalist for believing that poorly protected climbs are no longer in surplus and, when such a climb is ascended boldly without permanent alterations, it should be preserved as a testament to the free-spirited lunacy of adventure climbing....if this belief qualifies me to be a fundamentalist, why is it that you suggest that my drawing parallels between Numbah Ten and via ferrata is a "flamboyant over-the-top troll"? Are you suggesting that via ferrata aren't among the acceptable modifications rock climbers should endorse? I believe an omniscient, free-thinking man like you would view the via ferrata as yet another triumph of man and technology over the vertical environment, just another shade on the gray scale of mountaineering morality.

[Off_White]

Now Pope, I haven't engaged in cutsie pie diminuations of your name, and frankly you come off as a cad starting in with it. I don't necessarily mean "fundamentalist" as a perjorative term, rather as a descriptor. Is it inacurate? I don't think you're a fundamentalist based on your opinions about one particular pitch, it's an overall philosophy thing:

 

• You believe your position is based on the secular sport based equivalent of the "word of god" and the history of the sport itself.
   
  You believe your interpretation is the only correct one.
   
  You believe no other interpretation of the original intent or alternate belief systems have any merit whatsoever.
   
  Your interpretation of history is selective, only encompassing those texts and passages that support your interpretion, and cleverly discount, ignore, or avoid those which don't.
   
  Your statements such as "I can't see how adding bolts is ever justified (except maybe at a belay on a popular climb)" are devoid of nuance, a binary world view: one is either a member of your belief system or an unworthy infidel.
  

 

Yes, I'm saying that your prepostion of an array of ladders, handles, steps, and cables being the equivalent of bolt protected free climbing is ludicrous, stupid, and inflammatory. That you can see no difference only further confirms your fundamentalist status.

 

No, I don't accept via ferrata as an acceptable modification within the confines of the diverse sport called "climbing" and I believe very few practicioners, whether boulderers, gym climbers, crack climbers, sport climbers, alpinists, or new wave mixed climbers do either. One might find others within the "hiking" community who think it's a good idea, but I'd guess it would have to be in service of getting somewhere "cool." The only domestic via ferrata I'm familiar with is the rebar ladder on Bath Dome at City of Rocks in Idaho. I've never been up it, but I've definitely seen people on top of the formation who did not look like they were at home that far off the ground. I've never heard anyone propose chopping it, and it's certainly not established right over some route.

 

I freely confess that I know nothing about Numbah Ten, aside from what I read here. Did anyone ever lead it onsight as a free climb on gear only? Isn't the breaking strength on a #2 RP something in the neighborhood of 500 to 800 lbs? What's the chronology of the route and it's various ascents? Was it a popular aid route, or did it disappear back into the moss before it became a free route? Do you have a picture of the route? I simply do not have enough information to form an opinion about this route in particular, so I can't know whether I either agree or disagree with you about Numbah Ten.

[mattp]

Thanks for that, Off. Maybe with a bit of care we can have a bolting discussion that actually goes somewhere.

 

In this thread, we actually had some discussion of a proposed bolt. It didn't go real far, but there it was.

 

I can't climb Iron Horse and I'm not sure I've ever even rapped that line to look at it. I generally agree with the idea that we should be very shy about retrobolting established lines, but the idea that "it will be more an accomplishment" for someone if they can climb the route without that bolt is not the end of the story -- at least for me.

 

-How unique is the route?

 

-Who will/has climbed it with or without the bolt?

 

-Would the addition of this bolt signify or promote a change in route development/maintenance practices at Index?

 

-How dangerous is the move without the bolt?

 

-How will the addition of this bolt affect other climbs nearby visually and through (presumably) drawing more traffic to this climb?

 

-How visually prominent will the bolt be?

 

-What are prevailing attitudes?

 

-Will somebody be pissed off if we add the bolt?

 

-How can we justify retrobolting in this case?

 

-At a gut level, do we think it is right or wrong to add that bolt?

 

There seem to be a lot of 5.12 climbs at Index and my inclination would be to say thumbs down to the bolt but I’d be interested to hear from climbers who actually know the route in question. Also, I think the overall questions are:

 

-Is Lower Town wall “saturated” so that no more bolts or routes should be added?

 

-If not, when might we think it is?

 

-Who decides and how?

[mattp]

With regard NumbahTen/Amandla, we are discussing a route that was developed in a heavily if not exclusively bolt-protected style (there are a few moves on gear, are there not?) on a crag that was by then so heavily developed that any new bolt or new climb could easily have been (still is) dismissed as a retrobolt or a squeeze job, while many climbers lauded it is a remarkable achievement and a postitive addition to the mix of climbs at Index (still do). Personally, I'd have little problem with it if this does not become the start of a wholescale redevelopment and change in the character of the place (I realize NumbahTen/Amandla has been in place for over ten years and there has been an increase in bolting at Lower Town Wall but I believe it has been fairly gradual and generally undertaken after careful consideration).

 

Most of the crack climbs and the aid training climbs at Lower Town Wall still offer outstanding climbing experiences and I think the cliff looks pretty good overall – better than it did 20 years ago. But where are we in terms of the overall development? Many of the questions I raised above apply to this one, but I think it raises another significant question:

 

-Should we preserve Lower Town Wall as a “trad” and “aid” crag where bolts are minimized?

[Off_White]

-Should we preserve Lower Town Wall as a “trad” and “aid” crag where bolts are minimized?

 

Certainly that's the way the area looms in my mind, and I don't know of anywhere in the western part of Washington better suited to this sort of designation.

[RuMR]

Thanks for that, Off. Maybe with a bit of care we can have a bolting discussion that actually goes somewhere.

 

In this thread, we actually had some discussion of a proposed bolt. It didn't go real far, but there it was.

 

I can't climb Iron Horse and I'm not sure I've ever even rapped that line to look at it. I generally agree with the idea that we should be very shy about retrobolting established lines, but the idea that "it will be more an accomplishment" for someone if they can climb the route without that bolt is not the end of the story -- at least for me.

 

-How unique is the route?

 

-Who will/has climbed it with or without the bolt?

 

-Would the addition of this bolt signify or promote a change in route development/maintenance practices at Index?

 

-How dangerous is the move without the bolt?

 

-How will the addition of this bolt affect other climbs nearby visually and through (presumably) drawing more traffic to this climb?

 

-How visually prominent will the bolt be?

 

-What are prevailing attitudes?

 

-Will somebody be pissed off if we add the bolt?

 

-How can we justify retrobolting in this case?

 

-At a gut level, do we think it is right or wrong to add that bolt?

 

There seem to be a lot of 5.12 climbs at Index and my inclination would be to say thumbs down to the bolt but I’d be interested to hear from climbers who actually know the route in question. Also, I think the overall questions are:

 

-Is Lower Town wall “saturated” so that no more bolts or routes should be added?

 

-If not, when might we think it is?

 

-Who decides and how?

 

Iron horse flat does not need a bolt and/or a pin...it protects adequately in its current form, both the short and full version...

 

pope is still a tool, nonetheless...

[EWolfe]

Gee, the lower town wall is so pristine.... (QUARRIED!!)

 

hate to mess it up with a few bolts

[pope]

As a moderator, is it your job to steer the discussion away from the topic? Is this really a thread about what Pope believes, about how he qualifies as a fundamentalist? Reading your contribution, one might assume as much. MattP thanked you for your post, and he's a moderator, so maybe I'm really confused.

 

But I think you're full of shit. For example:

 

You believe your position is based on the secular sport based equivalent of the "word of god" and the history of the sport itself.

 
I believe mountain climbing's goal is to climb mountains. Start at the bottom, don't make a mess. How you arrived at the statement you make about my beliefs is very mysterious.
 
 
 
 

You believe your interpretation is the only correct one.

 
That's an incredibly stupid and hollow statement to make. Why would I believe that somebody else has the correct interpretation of mountaineering ethics? If that were the case, I'd jump on their bandwagon. Are you suggesting that each climber should figure out the ethical stance/practice that is right for him, kind of like choosing a religion or sexual preference? And then we should all embrace the resulting diversity? Bullshit. Choosing to spray bolts all over the crag is not a personal decision, it affects everybody, like blowing cigarette smoke or throwing your trash down at a public park.
 
 
 

You believe no other interpretation of the original intent or alternate belief systems have any merit whatsoever.

 
Again, you infer much, you deduce little. There are climbers who think no bolts are acceptable. Period. I'm not that extreme.....but I concede that these guys might just be right. Other guys will place gear in a crack on rap, hang-dog the moves, get the redpoint and race back to the bar to brag. In my mind, I think such an approach is less than ideal and kind of silly, but I concede that when they're done, when they pull their ropes, they leave the rock the way they found it and that's pretty bitchin.
 
 
 
 

Your interpretation of history is selective, only encompassing those texts and passages that support your interpretion, and cleverly discount, ignore, or avoid those which don't.

 
Huh? What are you talking about?
 
 
 

Your statements such as "I can't see how adding bolts is ever justified (except maybe at a belay on a popular climb)" are devoid of nuance, a binary world view: one is either a member of your belief system or an unworthy infidel.

 
You want nuance? Go climb the via ferrata. Go to Vantage and clip bolts every four feet on a 35-foot pitch.
 
 
 

No, I don't accept via ferrata as an acceptable modification within the confines of the diverse sport called "climbing" and I believe very few practicioners, whether boulderers, gym climbers, crack climbers, sport climbers, alpinists, or new wave mixed climbers do either.

 
And you can claim to be vehemently opposed to the via ferrata (while simultaneously accusing me of holding views devoid of nuance) but I recall you boasting about bolting a hold onto some secret cliff on your property. For all I know, you've got a via ferrata in your back yard.
 

 

 

Thanks for that, Off White. Now if we can get back on subject.

 

P.S., I'll keep a copy of this and post on Ascensionist if it gets deleted.

 

 

Regarding Numbah Ten, I think you and MattP are really clueless. That thing aids on nuts the entire way.

[mattp]

Pope, I had asked Off White to ship RuMR's post that kicked off the "fuck you Pope" spray extension to Spray, and he did so. I was thanking him for trying to steer the thread back on track.

 

Read back through the thread. A guy comes on here to ask about adding a bolt to Index Town Wall and virtually everyone who expresses an opinion on the question says no or "probably no." You bring up another route at Index and I point out that in part what we are talking about is preserving Index Lower Town Wall as primarily a trad/aid crag. I would think you'd support and encourage such discussion rather than try to make a mess out of it by trying to be provocative with the via ferratta and sit start nonsense and complaining about a moderator who deleted a post that said "fuck you pope." Yes, he described a negative reaction to your communication style - is THAT something we're not entitled to do?

 

Read it again: with the exception of RUmR's argument that a bolt may be no more damaging than a pin scar, your "presevationist" stance is getting some support though there has been some objectio nto your moralistic dramatics.

[inacan]

Gawd, I had no idea this was still alive. haven't been indoors much lately...

 

I didn't take the time to read back through all of this but just for the record, I never dreamed of putting a bolt on Iron Horse. I really had no idea what this web site was all about back when I wrote that, and to be honest I was just being provocative to see if anyone gave a shit. My apologies for being disingenuine. In fact it wasn't even original. Earlier at the crag while I was telling someone how fun I thought the upper part was they baited me by saying that they thought it should be bolted into a sport climb.

 

Iron Horse protects just fine. In fact the upper roof is really much less difficult than the lower half of the climb and it takes a truck small wire and three TCU's right where you need them. It is very safe. Maybe 11b...

 

Whatever. I know this has moved on beyond my stupid commit I just wanted to clear up my intentions. None exactly.

[tomtom]

Nevermind ...

[Off_White]

Very effective troll then. I hope you like fish, you'll be eating it for a week.

 

(Anyone weary of the soap opera should stop here)

To get back to Pope on his last post:

 

As a moderator, is it your job to steer the discussion away from the topic? Is this really a thread about what Pope believes, about how he qualifies as a fundamentalist? Reading your contribution, one might assume as much. MattP thanked you for your post, and he's a moderator, so maybe I'm really confused.

You’re not confused, you’re just obfuscating. As moderator, it’s my job to keep things civil, but I’m not the seminar leader, and I’m hardly precluded from having my own opinion. I was following your digressions about via ferrata and responding to someone’s assertion that arguing with you is pointless. My assertion is that it’s pointless because you are a fundamentalist with regards to climbing.

 

How you arrived at the statement you make about my beliefs is very mysterious.

I arrived at my statement after reading your postings for the last three years. I’m not going to paw through all your stuff to find supporting quotes, this is my opinion, not a term paper.

 

Why would I believe that somebody else has the correct interpretation of mountaineering ethics?

More obfuscation. I’m discussing the whole of climbing, not just mountaineering. Climbing is made up of a whole series of games, each of which can have multiple rules. Your insistence that there is only one valid set of commandments for the whole sport only futher confirms my fundamentalist nomination

 

And you can claim to be vehemently opposed to the via ferrata (while simultaneously accusing me of holding views devoid of nuance) but I recall you boasting about bolting a hold onto some secret cliff on your property. For all I know, you've got a via ferrata in your back yard.

Actually, I said “No, I don't accept via ferrata as an acceptable modification within the confines of the diverse sport called climbing” and there’s no “vehemence” implied. Let’s parse out the rest of your bullshit: Boasting? More like confessing, but certainly no more than disclosing. Actually, it’s four holds, in a man made sandstone quarry, providing access through a band of rotten rock to get to the good climbing. Secret? You mean the quarry publicly described and photographically represented in the Olympia Pub Club thread in the Events forum? It’s private, not secret, as in located in my front yard on my property. You’re welcome to come on down some Wednesday, I’d actually much rather climb with you than argue.

 

Sport climbing has been around about 25 years now. Can you provide even a single instance in all that time to suggest that sport climbing is a gateway drug to the installation of rebar and cable hiking trails up the crags and walls of North America? None? Then let’s give this particular bit of hysterical handwaving a rest, okay?

 

P.S., I'll keep a copy of this and post on Ascensionist if it gets deleted.

This one’s a real howler. Since when have I been deleting posts that are critical of me? I didn’t even delete or change anything from this thread, merely shipped off the “fuck you pope” bits to spray, preserving each and every precious word. Oh, and wow, you mean you’ll report me to Ascensionist? Golly gosh, that puts the fear in me.

 

 

Regarding Numbah Ten, I think you and MattP are really clueless. That thing aids on nuts the entire way.

 

Please re-read my earlier post, I stated that I knew nothing about the route and didn’t have the info to form an opinion. I agree with you, I’m really clueless regarding Numbah Ten. I asked a series of questions, which you were either disinclined or incapable of answering. It’s quite possible I even agree with you, I simply don’t have the data and have never been an Index regular.

 

 

Damn, that was to write, I can only imagine your pain, dear reader.

[knotzen]

Damn, that was to write, I can only imagine your pain, dear reader.

Ah, the old needle-under-the-fingernail trick.

[pope]

My assertion is that it’s pointless because you are a fundamentalist with regards to climbing.

 

How can you restate this when I just blew holes in every point you made to support this notion?

 

 

 

Now let's juxtapose:

 

How do you feel about the via ferrata?

I said “No, I don't accept via ferrata as an acceptable modification within the confines of the diverse sport called climbing”

 

 

 

Oh, but isn't it true that you have a crag on your property to which you've bolted a handhold?

Actually, it’s four holds, in a man made sandstone quarry, providing access through a band of rotten rock to get to the good climbing.

 

 

Now I see what you mean by being capable of allowing for "nuance" in your mountaineering ethics. You may call it nuance, I call it bullshit. And while I never suggested that the bolts on Numbah Ten were in any way equivalent to the via ferrata in the pasted photograph, I did point out five ways in which they are incredibly similar. You haven't yet addressed my points and I challenge you to argue how they are significantly different.

[AlpineK]

Now I see what you mean by being capable of allowing for "nuance" in your mountaineering ethics. You may call it nuance, I call it bullshit.

 

Carefull there Eric. Your route next to Carnival Crack has a bolt nearby a crack. A ballsey climber wouldn't need your bolt.

[pope]

Carefull there Eric. Your route next to Carnival Crack has a bolt nearby a crack. A ballsey climber wouldn't need your bolt.

 

Define nearby a crack. That bolt is not one in a series of bolts placed next to a c1/c2 aid crack. As far as I know, the climb was previously without ascent. I believe that bolt (the only bolt) protects a move for which no other gear is readily available. That move happens to be the crux and falling without pro there would result in serious injury. I didn't need the bolt, but a bolt was entirely appropriate.

 

This is the kind of nuance that doesn't smell like bullshit. Your moderator buddies might disagree, but the bullshit they're smelling is probably found on their own boots.

[AlpineK]

Exactly, you made a judgement that the bolt you placed is appropriate for the route.

 

The important thing is that is your judgement. Other people might not have felt the same way.

 

Did you consult with others before you placed that bolt?

[glassgowkiss]

if I'm a fundamentalist for believing that poorly protected climbs are no longer in surplus and, when such a climb is ascended boldly without permanent alterations, it should be preserved as a testament to the free-spirited lunacy of adventure climbing....

hey poop, just keep shooting your fucking mouth off. i can show you plenty of adveture climbing and bring fresh supply of depends.

[pope]

No, I appealed to a broad standard that leaves very little room for interpretation. A bolt may be appropriate on a route that offers no other reasonable protection provided that the route has not received an ascent without bolts.

[pope]

Pope, I had asked Off White to ship RuMR's post that kicked off the "fuck you Pope" spray extension to Spray, and he did so. I was thanking him for trying to steer the thread back on track.

 

My mistake. I generally disregard Rumr's posts. He seems to have nothing to say.

[RuMR]

hmmm...fuck you...

[glassgowkiss]

Pope, I had asked Off White to ship RuMR's post that kicked off the "fuck you Pope" spray extension to Spray, and he did so. I was thanking him for trying to steer the thread back on track.

 

My mistake. I generally disregard Rumr's posts. He seems to have nothing to say.

wow gee poop, like you have something interesting to say? you don't even climb anymore you fader

[pope]

You don't know what I do. BTW, you seem to think only climbers with impressive resumes can comment on these issues (ironically we hear plenty from you). Anway, did you ever ask Fred Beckey what he thinks about rap-placed bolts in the mountains? I hear he has a bitchin' resume.