Firefighters / East Coasters - Accidents

[Bill_Simpkins]

It seems that the major of unfortunate accidents on the local volcanoes involve firefighters or East-Coasters.

Am I wrong? If I recall correctly, recent ones are Liberty Ridge episode, last weekend at Gib Ledges, The Mt. Hood Blackhawk thing. I believe the list is huge.

Why would this be?

Please post your thoughts.

[catbirdseat]

Go ahead and say it, Bill. You think they are more prone to taking unreasonable risks.

[Alex]

I don't know about the firefighters correlation, but...

 

As a former right coaster, Mt Rainier is pretty much at the top of alot of people's "must do" lists, along with The Grand Teton. Its at the top because it represents a classic objective that *can* be done in a long weekend from the East (as opposed to say, a Yos roadtrip) - with not a huge amount of time committment, a notorious reputation (people DO die on it!), a certified stepping stone to the greater ranges (Alaska), recognizable name/achievment, and completely foreign hazards (Glaciers!). So people tend to really want to come out and try it/bag it, regardless of the realities. Most serious East Coast climbers also recognize that perhaps doing the Dog Route doesnt hold as many brownie points as doing something like Liberty Ridge (no one has heard of Ptarmigan back East), so many try Liberty Ridge - one of the 50 classics!!- with a fixed weather window dictated by plane tickets and vacation time. Its really not much different than what the rest of us do with our own climbing objectives, it just happens that Rainier in general and Lib Ridge in particular are much more committing than anything one can prepare for on the East coast, so people get caught out quite a bit...they just are not used to the size of the stuff out here, or that fact that wheather is the prime factor in a successful ascent.

[Billygoat]

True CBS: you are the one that put a fluke in on Gibs chute. (I would have done the same)

[Bill_Simpkins]

Possibly...maybe....

Firefighters may be risk takers, just like many of us. Many of them may join the crew for that reason. However, they are stuck responding to old lonely people pretending they are sick so someone will come to their house and talk to them. They drive around all day issuing burn ban violations or what not. If they spent most of their days putting out sick dangerous fires they they might be satisfied. Meanwhile most of the risks they do take ( and are very appreciated by us ) are successful and have many rewards, socially and personally.

They get out on a mountain with other firefighters and the brotherhood(pc.....sisterhood..) remains. Maybe their comfort level is elevated beyond what it should be.

Also notice that most of these accidents are on the Big Volcanoes, prizes to be had. "Firefighters climb big mountain".

That and a bit of mob mentality?

[Cobra_Commander]

Is it statistically significant? I don't think there is enough data to draw a correlation at this point.

[JayB]

I had the same thought with regards to firefighters - kind of reminds me of that period in the early nineties when a number of unfortunate accidents befell German tourists in this country.

 

With regards to the firefighters, I think that if the stats were available and one accounted for amount of time firemen spend in the mountains relative to the rest of the population, there'd be no long term correlation - my hunch is that this is just a sub population that's both more active than most, and one filled with guys that have a ton of spare time relative to the rest of the population - and they just get out a lot. I think we also tend to notice the accidents involving them a bit more as we expect them to be fit, competent, and trained extensively in first aid - so when they die it's a bit more striking - kind of like a fighter pilot dying while flying his cessna over Kansas or something - just not what you'd expect. Having said all of that - there does appear to be an unusual rash of accidents involving firefighters on PNW volcanos over the last three years.

 

With regards to East coasters/out-of-towners though - from what I can recall it seems like the clear majority of the folks that have perished on that route have been out-of-staters. In this case my guess is that this is just due to folks planning on the trip for years, training for months, and making a serious investment in funds and vacation time as part of an effort to climb a route that really seems to demand a solid weather window - although at least one or two of last year's accidents were due to falls rather than the weather.

[ashw_justin]

How much experience did these guys have? I think firefighters would be more willing to push on in spite of inexperience, fatigue, or perceived risk. I also think there is a notion that firefighters are at a pinnacle of physical fitness, which while true in some sense, is probably not true in a mountain setting where raw strength is not trumping. I guess I'm stereotyping firefighters now but I would hate to haul another 40 lbs of muscle up a mountain, for mulitple reasons.

[archenemy]

40 lbs of muscle gives me multiple reasons as well.

[cfire]

Possibly...maybe....

Firefighters may be risk takers, just like many of us. Many of them may join the crew for that reason. However, they are stuck responding to old lonely people pretending they are sick so someone will come to their house and talk to them. They drive around all day issuing burn ban violations or what not. If they spent most of their days putting out sick dangerous fires they they might be satisfied. Meanwhile most of the risks they do take ( and are very appreciated by us ) are successful and have many rewards, socially and personally.

They get out on a mountain with other firefighters and the brotherhood(pc.....sisterhood..) remains. Maybe their comfort level is elevated beyond what it should be.

Also notice that most of these accidents are on the Big Volcanoes, prizes to be had. "Firefighters climb big mountain".

That and a bit of mob mentality?

 

I just had to respond to this post. I'm a firefighter and Bill really has no idea what we do for a living to make that statement. While we do attend to old, SICK people regularly, we also respond to many car accidents, fire alarms, sick YOUNG people, and some of us actually go to fires quite often. I have never issued a burn ban violation and no firefighter in this state has as far as I know as it's not our job. We also train a lot and do public service appearances.

 

As to why we as a profession are in the climbing accident news lately, there are probably a number of reasons. It's easy for the media to say "firefighter killed", but I never hear "computer programmer killed" and maybe that profession has the same accident rate as us? Yes as a whole firefighters are probably more active and fit than other professions and some of us can even get our big fat "40 # heavier" asses up big mountains. Maybe as someone else said we just get out more. Who knows..

 

I've been climbing for longer than I've been in this gig and most of my partners have not been firefighters. I think it's B.S. to think that we take more chances than other people because of "the brotherhood". Most of us have a family at home that we want to see again just like anyone else.

 

I think Alex is right on about the East Coasters as well.

 

Peace

[Alpinfox]

 

...I just had to respond to this post. I'm a firefighter...

 

"Having once decided to achieve a certain task, achieve it at all costs of tedium and distaste"

 

 

Interesting signature line - considering the present topic.

[Double_E]

How much experience did these guys have? I think firefighters would be more willing to push on in spite of inexperience, fatigue, or perceived risk. I also think there is a notion that firefighters are at a pinnacle of physical fitness, which while true in some sense, is probably not true in a mountain setting where raw strength is not trumping. I guess I'm stereotyping firefighters now but I would hate to haul another 40 lbs of muscle up a mountain, for mulitple reasons.

 

I worked for a certain big-city fire department for about 1.5 years once (not as a firefighter; I worked on their dispatch-system databases). anyway, I met a lot of fatass firefighters... some were fatter'n me, and that's saying alot! I hate to diss on them like this, cuz each and every one were good peoples and seemed dedicated to their job n' stuff ...... and cuz I wouldn't mind maybe just maybe working there again some day.

 

but just let it be known.... ALL firefighters are in top physical shape when they get out of drill school at age 24 .... but then most fatten up with time, just like the general public.

[cfire]

ALL firefighters are in top physical shape when they get out of drill school at age 24 .... but then most fatten up with time, just like the general public.

 

Not most, but surely some. As a whole firefighters are not as overweight as the general public.

[selkirk]

Possibly...maybe....

Firefighters may be risk takers, just like many of us. Many of them may join the crew for that reason. However, they are stuck responding to old lonely people pretending they are sick so someone will come to their house and talk to them. They drive around all day issuing burn ban violations or what not. If they spent most of their days putting out sick dangerous fires they they might be satisfied. Meanwhile most of the risks they do take ( and are very appreciated by us ) are successful and have many rewards, socially and personally.

They get out on a mountain with other firefighters and the brotherhood(pc.....sisterhood..) remains. Maybe their comfort level is elevated beyond what it should be.

Also notice that most of these accidents are on the Big Volcanoes, prizes to be had. "Firefighters climb big mountain".

That and a bit of mob mentality?

 

 

As usual i'm pretty much talking out of my ass, but these trends and suggestions seem pretty similar the recent studies of heuristic avalanche traps, and the group dynamics factor that sometimes causes people to be willing to take greater risks without even realizing is.

 

(i.e. Group of guys gets the testosterone flowing, racing up the approach, and generally pushing each other. In mixed sex groups, women in general tend to defer to the men with more aggresive personalities, and the guys tend to feel like they want to impress the ladies, resulting in higher risk levels. Similar issues when you have multiple parties in the area, compounded with a potentially false sense of safety due to having additional people nearby.)

 

While I don't know that there's any stastical data on east-coasters and firefighters (and if you don't want generalizations about Cfire, watch making them about East Coasters. Just because a few get in over their heads doesn't mean that as a whole they aren't qualified.) There has been some good stuff done on general group dynamics.

 

Heuristic Traps

 

I don't see any reason why climbers wouldn't be prone to the same behaviours when choosing and attempting routes and weather windows. But for more moderate routes it's possible to back off or hunker down safely. Throw in something more serious like Lib. Ridge, and you don't have those escape options anymore.

 

On a different note.... ever notice that most of the accidents that seem to pop up are all male parties? Firefighters aren't the only ones susceptible to testosterone poisoning.

[jordop]

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Edited June 4, 2021 by jordop

[Bill_Simpkins]

Possibly...maybe....

Firefighters may be risk takers, just like many of us. Many of them may join the crew for that reason. However, they are stuck responding to old lonely people pretending they are sick so someone will come to their house and talk to them. They drive around all day issuing burn ban violations or what not. If they spent most of their days putting out sick dangerous fires they they might be satisfied. Meanwhile most of the risks they do take ( and are very appreciated by us ) are successful and have many rewards, socially and personally.

They get out on a mountain with other firefighters and the brotherhood(pc.....sisterhood..) remains. Maybe their comfort level is elevated beyond what it should be.

Also notice that most of these accidents are on the Big Volcanoes, prizes to be had. "Firefighters climb big mountain".

That and a bit of mob mentality?

 

I just had to respond to this post. I'm a firefighter and Bill really has no idea what we do for a living to make that statement. While we do attend to old, SICK people regularly, we also respond to many car accidents, fire alarms, sick YOUNG people, and some of us actually go to fires quite often. I have never issued a burn ban violation and no firefighter in this state has as far as I know as it's not our job. We also train a lot and do public service appearances.

 

As to why we as a profession are in the climbing accident news lately, there are probably a number of reasons. It's easy for the media to say "firefighter killed", but I never hear "computer programmer killed" and maybe that profession has the same accident rate as us? Yes as a whole firefighters are probably more active and fit than other professions and some of us can even get our big fat "40 # heavier" asses up big mountains. Maybe as someone else said we just get out more. Who knows..

 

I've been climbing for longer than I've been in this gig and most of my partners have not been firefighters. I think it's B.S. to think that we take more chances than other people because of "the brotherhood". Most of us have a family at home that we want to see again just like anyone else.

 

I think Alex is right on about the East Coasters as well.

 

Peace

 

Be safe what I asume. A good friend of mine is a firefighter, and I have climbed with firefighters, on of all mountains....Rainier.

My main climbing partner is a volunteer firefighter.

You cannot deny that many firefighters have a hotshot mentality when they group upand bust out some ropes. Argue the contrary, but I've seen it. I've seen it on hood, I've seen it on Rainier, I've seen it at a local 911 call.

Get a bunch of firefirghters together and something is different. Even if this is NOT the case, it IS the image they project.

 

And by the way, I've climbed with many out of shape firefighters. Most people are out of shape these days though.

 

There are exceptions to all generalizations, but most accidents on the big mountains lately have been firefighters. Do you care to explain why?

[ashw_justin]

Who called firefighters fat in the first place? It wasn't me, I just said that they generally have more muscle mass. I have friends that are young firefighters and they are in impressive physical shape. I just wouldn't jump at the chance to connect myself to them with a rope.

 

The casualties are specifically noted to be firefighters because the general public has a naive notion of what makes one physically prepared for mountaineering. A lot of people would be equally confused if it were football players. Also, clearly the US public is particularly sensitive to any tragedy involving firefighters since the terrorist attacks.

[Mark_Husbands]

what i want to know is:

are firefighters statistically more likely to have mustaches?

it would seem so, but i know of no scientific study that addressed this. worth a grant.

[Bill_Simpkins]

I think they are more prone to own big trucks and put a firefighter bumbersticker on the back window.

[Dechristo]

...are firefighters statistically more likely to have mustaches?

 

There are usually departmental prohibitions against any facial hair that interferes with establishing/maintaining an SCBA face mask seal; hence, a mustache is the only facial hair permitted.

[Mark_Husbands]

...a mustache is the only facial hair permitted.

 

i see. so firefighters have identified facial hair as a safety concern. perhaps in an environment as hazardous as the icy slopes of Rainier, even mustaches, albeit safer than beards and goatees, increase the probability of an accident. worth thinking about when you look yourself in the mirror prior to a big climb.

[Dechristo]

...a mustache is the only facial hair permitted.

 

i see. so firefighters have identified facial hair as a safety concern.

 

Naaaahhh, doesn't have to do with safety at all...

 

...they're all just clones of Mack Sennet's Keystone Cops trained to carry water pails.

[snugtop]

Firefighters also have an unseemly propensity to catcalling.

 

I know I'll prolly take a lot of crap for saying it but it's true. It's a boys-club and they seem to think that because they are sometimes in emergency situations this should exempt them from normal, professional behavior. Every time I go running and a firetruck goes by I hear them shouting shit at me. It doesn't matter what you look like, or what you are wearing, if you are a woman walking down a street alone, the firefighters feel perfectly comfortble harrassing you.

[Ducknut]

I am old school, and old (47). But I have never figured this shit out. Do guys who verbally harass women think they are making headway by saying "hey baby, nice [/8=D]inapporpriate sexual reference[/8=D]?

[Dechristo]

Reference "pack mentality". The same thing goes on here.