No more roadless areas for us!

[selkirk]

I just love our President and Legislative bodies at the moment. They obviously know what's best for us out here in the west. After all, weren't the roadless rules just meant to set aside timber to be logged at a latter date?

taken from CNN

 

 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The last 58.5 million acres of untouched national forests, which President Clinton had set aside for protection, were opened to possible logging, mining and other commercial uses by the Bush administration Thursday.

 

New rules from the U.S. Forest Service cover some of the most pristine federal land in 38 states and Puerto Rico.

 

Ninety-seven percent of it is in 12 states: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Washington and Wyoming.

 

Governors can submit petitions within 18 months to stop road building on some of the 34.3 million acres where it would now be permitted, or request that new forest management plans be written to allow the construction on some of the other 24.2 million acres.

 

Some officials made it clear much of the land will remain untouched.

 

"We have no plans to build roads in the roadless areas of the national forests in California. ... Areas are roadless here for a reason," said Matt Mathes, a regional spokesman for the Forest Service in the state.

 

Agriculture Secretary Mike Johanns said his agency, which includes the Forest Service, would work closely with governors "to meet the needs of our local communities while protecting and restoring the health and natural beauty of our national forests."

 

Democrats questioned why governors were getting so much power over land use.

 

"Trees, wildlife and fish don't respect state boundaries, and I don't think decisions about management of roadless areas -- or other parts of the national forests -- should be based on those lines, either," said Rep. Mark Udall of Colorado.

 

"The Bush administration's decision to gut the 'roadless rule' is a gift to special interests and a blow to the environment," said Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York in a press release.

 

Eight days before leaving office in 2001, President Clinton acted to take decisions about roadless forest land away from local federal managers.

 

Environmentalists said the managers often were too close to logging companies and other developers.

 

"Any short-term economic gain that would result from turning over these areas to corporate special interests is significantly outweighed by the economic benefit of keeping them intact," said Steve Smith, the Wilderness Society's assistant regional director for Utah, Arizona, Colorado and New Mexico.

 

"This takes us straight back to the early 1990s, when the national forests were managed as nothing more than tree lots for the timber industry," said Philip Clapp, president of the National Environmental Trust.

 

The Forest Service will have final say over the governors' petitions. But the agency is creating an advisory committee to help put the rule in place.

 

The agency said petitions from the states could be based on requests to protect public health and safety; reduce wildfire risks; conserve wildlife habitat; maintain dams, utilities or other public works; or ensure that people have road access to their private property.

 

With the federal courts deeply involved since President Clinton's action, the fate of the regulations is in doubt.

 

On Wednesday, the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals heard arguments from environmental groups appealing a Wyoming judge's ruling overturning Clinton's move.

 

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has upheld Clinton's rule. Many of the same issues apply in both cases.

 

Agriculture Undersecretary Mark Rey, who oversees forest policy, said the new rule would cut away the legal uncertainty by getting states on the side of the federal government.

 

He emphasized that the rule probably would not lead to a big spurt of road building. "We've only been constructing a few miles of road each year," said Rey, a former timber industry lobbyist.

 

Jim Angell, a lawyer with the Earthjustice law firm, said plaintiffs already are lining up to challenge the changes announced Thursday.

 

[mec]

Soon, the US will be one big factory...

[archenemy]

Actually, we are continuing to head toward a mostly service-based economy. But people still read newspapers and wipe their asses.

Sucks to be losing our roadless areas. I watched roadless areas get developed right next to our place when I was a kid in Montana. I watched logging slow down when I lived in Idaho and enjoyed being able to explore "backroads" without fear of being run over by a friggen logging truck. It is sad that we as a country don't make enough long-term plans for our forested and roadless areas. And it's one of those things that I feel pretty powerless against (to the point of apathy), and I feel guilty bitching about. But it still sucks.

[olyclimber]

It's man against nature! We're winning the battle, and will be losing the war.

[chirp]

I feel pretty powerless against (to the point of apathy), and I feel guilty bitching about. But it still sucks.

 

Your not powerless...grab your wooden shoe!

 

 

Click me!

[selkirk]

This we know, the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth.

This we know.

All things are connected like the blood which unites one family. All things

are connected.

Whatever befalls the earth, befalls the sons of the earth. Man did not

weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to

the web, he does to himself.

 

Chief Sealth

[chirp]

That speech made a great Soundgarden song!

(I'll rip a copy and post it here for posterity)

 

More options

 

 

I think it might behoove us to start carrying our hammers and a few "pegs" out to the cliffs.

[olyclimber]

Excuse me while I foul my own nest.

[iain]

More options

 

 

I think it might behoove us to start carrying our hammers and a few "pegs" out to the cliffs.

 

Ever get that feeling a thread is just about to explode

[archenemy]

I feel pretty powerless against (to the point of apathy), and I feel guilty bitching about. But it still sucks.

 

Your not powerless...grab your wooden shoe!

 

 

Even the number of issues on that site are almost overwhelming. I spend a bit of my time volunteering and serve on the board of directors for the cause I believe in the most. But I always feel like there are other things I should be focused on and learning about. For instance, what is the wooden shoe reference?

[iain]

I believe he is referring to the mis-etymology of the word "sabotage", which is popularly thought to originate from french workers who wore sabots, and threw them in the factory machinery to show their anger. I have heard the true etymology is still from the word sabot and saboters (wearers of sabots), but evolved from bungling incompetent employees who caused problems.

[Dru]

Are those wooden shoes made from hemp or from clearcut old growth forest?

[catbirdseat]

Looking at roadless areas purely as an economic issue we lose. John Q. Public loses money on the construction of the roads. Then human motorized access results in more human caused forest fires. We lose money spent fighting fires we wouldn't otherwise have had to fight.

 

I find it comical when they argue that cutting trees reduces fire danger. Fully half of all forest fires are caused by man.

[Cobra_Commander]

yeah duh! but if there no forest there no forest fire, mission akomplished dumass

[Dru]

"Trees cause pollution." - Ronald McReagan

[Ducknut]

I'll bet AlpineK has something to say about safety and tree spiking. I am against tree abuse. Spiking that lttle hickory tree isn't going to do anything to deter logging. It has no commercial use or value.

 

You don't have to feel helpless or go out and do something counterproductive like tree spiking, go join a group or give them money. You need to fight the industrial land and resource snatchers and agencies in the court of public opinion and then in the Federal Courts and Congress. You could always just vote the Republicans out of the White House.

[foraker]

= The 23rd Sigh =

 

.......Bush is my shepherd; I dwell in want.

.......He maketh logs to be cut down in national forests.

.......He leadeth trucks into the still wilderness.

He restoreth my fears.

.......He leadeth me in the paths of international disgrace for his ego's sake.

 

.......Yea, though I walk through the valley of pollution and war,

I will find no exit, for thou art in office.

.......Thy tax cuts for the rich and thy media control, they discomfort me.

.......Thou preparest an agenda of deception in the presence of thy religion.

.......Thou anointest my head with foreign oil.

My health insurance runneth out.

 

.......Surely megalomania and false patriotism shall follow me all the days of thy term,

.......And my jobless child shall dwell in my basement forever.

[archenemy]

good points, well said.

And I would never spike anything--not even a drink--if I thought it would harm a person. Ever.

Unless they were a Republican.

[Mal_Con]

In the old days which we seem to be heading back to the Wobblies used to nail a shoe up at a job site where they were striking as a warning that the gear might be sabatoged.

[Bill_Simpkins]

I have a couple of old friends in Oregon that have worked for the Forest Service for over 25 years.

They told me the worst thing that has happened was to cut back on the logging. They told me the fees supplied revenue to protect and plan forest harvesting better. Now the forest service doesn't have the money they used to have. That's why we have the parking fees, thats why we have less money to lobby against anti forest laws.

That is what they told me, I'm not informed enough to form an opinion.

We whine about parking fees, but we brought them on ourselves.

One thing some of us forget, is that the logging companies want to be able to log 50,100,150 years from now. I don't think it is in their best interest to log everything away. However, people that want fast payoffs may have a different attitude and be more greedy about things.

I don't know, just ranting.

[archenemy]

I have a couple of old friends in Oregon that have worked for the Forest Service for over 25 years.

They told me the worst thing that has happened was to cut back on the logging. They told me the fees supplied revenue to protect and plan forest harvesting better. Now the forest service doesn't have the money they used to have. That's why we have the parking fees, thats why we have less money to lobby against anti forest laws.

That is what they told me, I'm not informed enough to form an opinion.

Certainly you can tell by the posts on this site (mine especially!) that being well-informed is not a prerequisite for forming an opinion. Go for it!

[Cobra_Commander]

In fact, misinformation is a prerequisite, perhaps with a jigger of misplaced overreaction.

[archenemy]

In fact, misinformation is a prerequisite, perhaps with a jigger of misplaced overreaction.

Isn't a jigger what you use to mix drinks in while wearing wooden shoes?

[Cobra_Commander]

No it's whe-OMG I'M BEING EATEN BY COATHANGERS AAAAHHH

[Dru]

A jigger is someone who jigs.