Twisty Ropes

[Blake]

What's the conventional wisdom on keeping ropes from getting all twisty and coiled up, or getting them un-kinked? I've heard lowering off of anchors can do it, any truth in this? I've had this problem after a day of single-pitch cragging. (We aren't belaying/rappeling with a munter either, as I've heard that this also kinks ropes.)

[chirp]

If its a new rope, then take it to the nearest park and lay it out on the grass and drag it around in its full length. If not then, perhaps its the way your coiling it? butterfly has been solid for me, the mounties coil will jack it up in no time tho.

[Collin]

I'm not sure if it's the brand of rope but edelweiss ropes always twisted on me. I haven't had a problem with mamute ropes twisting. I was told that the way you belay/lower, "How you run the rope through your ATC", can cause a rope to get twisty.

[Ducknut]

I am sure you can buy a rope straightener at REI. Use it and return it.

[Jake]

What the hell is a rope straightener?

[knelson]

If you're using a Figure 8 for your belay device... don't. That'll twist 'em in no time. And a second on that "no mountaineering coil" comment - plus the butterfly is just plain quicker and easier.

 

-kurt

[sobo]

What the hell is a rope straightener?

 

Ya caught one, Brad!

[catbirdseat]

Jim Nelson was telling me the other day that Munter Hitches and Figure Eights don't necessarily twist the rope. He says that proper handling of the rope prevents twisting. I think this needs to be demonstrated to me before I'll believe it.

[fern]

the first key to having an non-twisty rope is to uncoil it from the factory coil properly the first time afer you buy it. If you do this wrong then your rope may never stop being twisty.

[Blake]

It's an Edelwiess, I'm belaying with an atc, and coiling with a butterfly. Thanks for suggestions.

[COL._Von_Spanker]

I have noticed this with Eidelweiss as well. When I use it side by side with my mammut supersafe the Eidel will tangle itself, and the mammut won't. Sometime the two of them will get so twisted I think they may be trying to mate and make rope babies.

 

A little diligenge will avoid this problem. My theory is this, the stiffness of the eidelweis ropes sort of prevents them from naturally spinning the tangles out while it's hanging. You can get the twists out by grabbing the end of the rope and twisting it in such a way that it is opposite of the way it's twisted and your rats nest will fall apart. At least this has been my experience.

[Jake]

What the hell is a rope straightener?

 

Ya caught one, Brad!

 

Yeah yeah yeah.

[minx]

I have noticed this with Eidelweiss as well. When I use it side by side with my mammut supersafe the Eidel will tangle itself, and the mammut won't. Sometime the two of them will get so twisted I think they may be trying to mate and make rope babies.

 

 

i'll take one of the rope babies if they reproduce i haven't had much of a problem with my eidelweiss tangling any worse than my mammut. but back to what fern said. we were very careful about uncoiling each of them the first time.

[billcoe]

I've heard that if you cut the rope in 1/2, because the effective length is shortened, that it will only tangle 1/2 as bad.

 

I have not tried this home remedy yet, perhap somebody else can enlighten us if it really works.

 

-

-

BTW, that rope straightener thing hasn't been at REI for over 5 years. I think this was one of those things where they were trying to be nice, but some gym climber sued them for pain and suffering after it only partially straightened their rope and they got stuck part of the way down a cliff during their first time ever outside to a real crag for a rappel/rap bolt attempt.

[Alpinfox]

the first key to having an non-twisty rope is to uncoil it from the factory coil properly the first time afer you buy it. If you do this wrong then your rope may never stop being twisty.

 

Is this a troll? If so you got me; I'm one gullible SOB.

 

What is the "proper" way to uncoil a factory coiled rope.

[erden]

Rope is coiled into a loop on a wheel, cut to length then cinched with labels and such for sale. If you remove the labels, then the knot holding it in place, and start pulling one end of the rope out of the coil, you will introduce one full twist to the rope for each coil you undo until the rope is fully uncoiled (this would be a pull along the central axis of the coil). With use you may remove some of that, but while it goes through belay devices, the sheath will likely move w.r.t. the core, making the twisty mess a permanent feature of the rope at hand, regardless of brand.

 

Better way is: have a friend help you, put your arms from either side into the coil and simulate a wheel in front of you. Have your friend pull on one end of the rope pulling it tangentially to the coil, while you simulate a turning wheel with your forearms undoing the coil, kinda like basketball referee motioning for travel (I think - I have not watched basketball in ages!). That will introduce no twists in the rope, hence no kinks later.

 

I should take a picture of this, easier that way; I have a friend who just got a rope and needs to do just that...

 

Erden.

[erden]

As for REI rope straightener, best one is by the corner at the Seattle REI where they have a mechanical gizmo to wrap long lengths of rope or webbing into a coil as they are measured and cut to length. It has a lever that makes a wheel out of the arms of the gizmo, then with another pull of the lever, the arms come down, making it easy to remove the newly formed coil.

 

Put your new rope on that gizmo, then uncoil pulling one end again tangentially while the rope is still on that thing... The folks at REI should let you use the gizmo thing, no problem. You will get it done in now time.

 

Erden.

[fern]

simulate a turning wheel with your forearms undoing the coil, kinda like basketball referee motioning for travel

 

or like kindergarteners singing the "Wheels on the Bus go Round and Round song"

[Alpinfox]

 

Yowza.

 

Thanks Erden.

[ketch]

Erden and Fern nailed it as to induced twisty ropes. One other cause can be in your coiling. This is where ropes bags shine. When you coil in a "mountie" coil you induce a twist with each coil laid down. These are removed when you uncoil but only if you do so the exact reverse of how you laid it down. This is not usually a problem but if your tendancy is to vary widely it gets noticable. Riggers that deal with wire vs textile rope coil in what is termed an over/under. This is where each one laid is reversed from the previous. Net result is no twists at all, but with this one if it is uncoiled wrong you tie a perfect row of overhand knots.

 

If you continue to have problems a great practice is to purchase a fair piece of wire rope like the cheap steel clothline and coil it paying attention to how you are twisting your fingers. The steel is not pliable like a rope and therefore won't coil nice if you do it funny.

[joekania]

I use the over-under almost daily with audio and video cables, and it does NOT tie your line into knots, it actually makes it possible to toss the line/cable its full length without it turning into a tangled mess. I'm sure it would help out the mountaineering coil in the same regard.

[Dru]

when using an ATC or Reverso type belay device make sure when lowering or rapping you keep the rope in the plane of the rope slots. if you have the rope come out of the slot and then take a 90 degree turn to your brake hand held off to the side, it will induce twisting in the rope.

[ketch]

Joekania, that's good but I must differ. Video and Audio cableing is the main use for over/unders. Exactly because it does not induce a twist. Most people only coil that way if they are taught, this usually involves being taught to "use" as well so it is not usually a problem. However, if you coil a line and then by reaching through the coil grab the other end and walk away it will uncoil nicely and tie a overhand knot spaced a every other coil until you reach the other end. If you do the same with a standard coil it will pull free but induce 1/2 twist for each coil. Give it a try. The old time sailors used the same trick for making "climbing ropes" a line was faked down and then the end pulled and it tied a nice row of knots to climb up.

[jlag]

THis works great for getting most of the twists out. You need a bit space, I use the block I live on. Run the rope out end to end, have on person hold one end. Clip an atc/belay device right next to the person and then run the device all the way to other end. You will push all the twists out the other end. You'll see the end whipping around long before you get there. Also you have twists going the other way(toward the person holding), this can be taken care of by have the person switch hands or better yet start from the opposite end. I usually do this every month and my ropes run clean after that.

[Pro Mountain Sports]

While not necesarily recommending the figure 8 or munter for descending, I do know how to use them without having them twist the rope. One thing nice about using the figure 8, especially for the first person over the edge, is the ease of locking off. One good thing about having the last person down using a slot type device, is it will keep the two ropes seperated so they can't wrap around each other.

 

Brian feel free to stop by the store some time for a demonstration and we can talk about that slide show.

 

It's fairly easy to learn and practice. Try changing the angle of the brake end of the rope as it feeds into the Friction device.