I've been humbled

[JayB]

I set an TR anchor for some friends very much like JK describes. Once. It was my second or third lead outside, and on my two previous leads I'd the anchors included chains that I simply threaded the ropes through if my friends wished to TR the climbs (wasn't thinking about wear and tear on the chains at that point either). I topped out on this particular climb and found that their were no chains. No problem, I'll just clip a locker to each hanger, loop a couple of runners between each hanger, then clip three biners to the runners with the gates opposed over the top of the runners, lower off, and all will be well.

 

Both of my friends TR'd the route, then I headed up the route again to retrieve my gear and rap down. When I looked at the TR set-up I had installed again I immediately recognized my mistake and felt sick. I knew that in the unlikely event that one of the bolts serving as the anchor blew, all of the biners, the rope, and one of my friends would have gone careening to the ground. My negligence could have very well killed, paralyzed, or maimed one of my friends.

 

I felt so ashamed that once I rapped down I immediately explained what I had done wrong to my friends, apologized, and said I hoped that they could forgive me, but I'd understand if they couldn't. They put their faith in me and I blew it. Thanfully luck was on my side, but even after several years I think about what might have happened if it hadn't been. My friends trusted me with their lives and I blew it, big time. I vowed that I would never let that happen again, and if it did I would quit climbing altogether.

 

I try to remember that lesson often, and keep it in mind every time I set an anchor that someone else's life depends on. I got lucky once, but I have done everything in my power - including obsessing over anchor set-ups, setting up c-z systems in the yard, etc - to insure that luck never, ever plays a role in determining whether or not someone lives or dies as a result of an anchor I've set.

 

[ 11-02-2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

[snoboy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muffy The Wanker Sprayer:

NO!!!!! Anna should not have asked for it... how can you asses someone else when they do not represent themselves acuratly????

---

That is maybe why some people are a little touchy about tis whole thing. Climbing partnerships are based on trust. We have to believe that the person who says the are OK to do something really is. Otherwise we're all going to have to carry around certification cards from the Mounties or something and that would sure suck!

 

Shredmaximus: you did the right thing if you truly believed that anna knew what she was getting in to. Muffy says you were the most experienced climber in the group though, and sometimes that carries responsibility. It can be hard though to realize that you are "the one" that day, especially if someone is louder than you.

[sk]

for me I guess I am still just trying to sort out my own feelings... I'm sure shred is as well. DUDE! stop blaming your self. It is no more your fault than it is mine. Hopefuly anna realy did learn from this. I know I did and it didn't even happen to me, the idea of loosing a friend is frightening.

 

lets just all climb safely isn't that why we all do the double checking and backing up that we do??? so we can avoid the avoidable???

[Matt_Anderson]

Probably beating a dead horse, but . .

 

Anna -

 

It sounds like you keep putting yoursef in positions where 1) you don't know how to keep yourself safe; and 2) you either are unwilling or unaware that you should ask someone to teach you how to keep yourself safe:

 

First (per jkrueger) you set up a top rope anchor where if any of three pieces (either anchor biner or the cordellete) failed you would have died. A gumby mistake. Despite the fact that you didn't know enough to avoid this, you told an experienced climber that you were able to set up a safe anchor - totally wrong. Then you let others trust their lives to this anchor. You could have killed yourself or another person. You decided to do this even though other people were available to ensure that you could make a safe anchor.

 

Second, you led up your second trad lead ever, couldn't finish it and set up an anchor that failed. Again you could have died. You set up an obviously inadequate anchor and trusted it. You didn't have the knoweldge, instincts or humility to ask someone to either bail you out or evaluate your anchor.

 

Third (not in time order) You chose to take climbing advice and trust a person who beat himself up for not insisting you rappell of an anchor that failed. (Not realizing that doing so would have killed you).

 

Some people have inherently good judgement or instincts. They can look at a system and figure out how it works. Other people research things enough that they can learn how to set up safe systems. Finally, other people have a knack for choosing people to teach them who are qualified and can be trusted.

 

Unfortunately, it seems crystal clear that you have excercised none of these qualities(I'm sure you have many other wonderful qualities). It has been said cruelly and nicely, but you need to understand that at this point, you totally lack that certain something (except luck)that will keep you and (more importantly), the people you climb with alive.

 

Go find a certified climbing insturctor who can teach you how to keep yourself safe and limit your activities to what that insturctor explicitly authorizes. Your luck has saved your butt and the butts of those who climb with you so far, but it won't do so indefinitely.

 

Its one thing to screw up and risk your own life. Its another thing to screw up and risk the lives of those around you. You appear incapable of accessing your own skill level. Don't let other people suffer because of it.

 

[ 11-02-2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Matt Anderson ]

[Fence_Sitter]

is it cause she is a hot blonde that everyone want to shift blame? cause jsut cause she is hot, doesn't mean i wanna die by her hand... i like going out with people from this website and i trust tha peopel tell me the truth about their abilities...i have gone out with people on outer space metting peopel on this site... where do you draw the line? if ana told me that she wanted to climb outer space, R.O.T.C. or something, woudl it be her fault then, my hunch is no, but when lamebone made what may or may not have been a mistake EVERYONE was quick to jump on him...

[snoboy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fence Sitter:

i have gone out with people on outer space metting peopel on this site... where do you draw the line?

---

I don't do stuff that is challenging for me with new partners unless they come highly recommended from people I trust. That's it. That's the line for me.

 

I also try to see what's going on when they are setting anchors and stuff, before I trust my life to them. If you have somne experience you can often pick up the deadly gumbies pretty quick. Not always though. So I wait to stick my neck out. Example - I would not climb Outer Space with a new partner. Period.

 

I will put myself in the position of the most experienced though, and bring people up their first multi-pitch or something like that.

[sk]

shred- two things

 

1) she did not deck (hit the ground)

 

2) if she would have rappled and it by some miracle had worked she would not have learned this hopefuly VALUABLE lesson.

[Fence_Sitter]

i didn't find outer space particularly challenging and it protected easily... i trust taht when someone tells me they are experienced at climbing hard 10's multi-pitch and i am comfortable with the same...but mabe i am jsut a rare person that values honesty...

[snoboy]

Hey I've got a question. Did Anna learn? I think shredmaximus said at some point that her gear up to the pin was good. So what went wrong with her anchor.

 

Maybe we could all help her figure that out.[insert group hug graemlin ]

 

Anna are you still listening to this thread? What can youtell us? Or shred for that matter?

[Fence_Sitter]

didnt' he say that she equalized her anchor so that if one piece failed, all failed?

[snoboy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fence Sitter:

i didn't find outer space particularly challenging and it protected easily... i trust taht when someone tells me they are experienced at climbing hard 10's multi-pitch and i am comfortable with the same...but mabe i am jsut a rare person that values honesty...

---

Fair enough. Each persons level of challenge is different. For me any multi-pitch is a serious enough endeavour to need to know your partner. I'm not saying they need to be ultra competent, I just need to know where I stand that day. If I am trusting someone to build an anchor to hang my ass off, then I want to see them demonstrate that before I am 50m off the ground.

[sk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fence Sitter:

didnt' he say that she equalized her anchor so that if one piece failed, all failed?

---

are you talking about what JK said about what happened at smith in may????

[snoboy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by shredmaximus:

quote:

---

didnt' he say that she equalized her anchor so that if one piece failed, all failed?

---

Ummm...no I think it was obviously the LACK of equalization that caused it to fail.

---

Ok I was trying to stay out of this for a while, but what the hell...

 

I think that it was jk who said she had built a TR anchor that was sketchy, ie one piece fail=all fail.

 

Why is it obvious that a lack of Equilization caused failure? If the pieces were good, then any single piece should have held her.

[Tyrone_Shoes]

Well it seems (SNOWBOY) that some other people besides myself and CHIPS do understand what we were talking about.

 

Once again, forget about being rude or arrogant, It has nothing to do with it. NOTHING. What we are talking about is,

 

Know thy self and know thy partner

 

If you can't acept that at face value and process the notion in a usefull way...well then...I guess we'll read about ya in the obituaries.

 

It's that simple, sorry was that rude?

[sk]

personaly when I screw up big time I would rather some one just tell me about it straight up. even if it does make me cry. I am not a fan of being politicaly correct, and some times the truth hurts.

 

granted, not everyone is like me

[Tyrone_Shoes]

Muffy the Wanker Sprayer said it perfect:

 

"I hold it as my responsability to my self and my climbing partners to represent my ability and experience as honestly as possible"

 

well said, this is infact what I'm are talking about here. It seemed I was on my own on this notion, but i guess not, very good.

 

You can take mule to water, but you can't make him drink it.

[snoboy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tyrone Shoes:

Well it seems (SNOWBOY) that some other people besides myself and CHIPS do understand what we were talking about.

 

Once again, forget about being rude or arrogant, It has nothing to do with it. NOTHING. What we are talking about is,

 

Know thy self and know thy partner

 

If you can't acept that at face value and process the notion in a usefull way...well then...I guess we'll read about ya in the obituaries.

 

It's that simple, sorry was that rude?

---

Well Mr Shoes, I think the way a message is delivered is important. Do you think Anna really got anything from your message? I don't, not from the way she responded to you. I don't know if she got anything from what any of us said though?

 

No, that wasn't rude at all.

 

Have you climbed with Anna?

[allthumbs]

Tyrone Shoes = Mark Twat

[Dave_Schuldt]

Anna, go to the Royal Columns at the Tieton

River near Yakima Wa. There are a bunch or easy routes. The anasite is solid and takes nets and hexes like a dream.

 

I have bean climbing almost 10 years and still get verry frustated sometimes. Some days your head is together and some days it's not. If it was easy it wouldn't be rewarding.

 

Knowing when to back off is the most inportant thing. "Aways better to do too little than too much"

[Tyrone_Shoes]

Well Snowboy, I think Anna took it the wrong way and failed to extract and process the message.

 

Over confidence kills, I've seen it in aviation more than once.

 

If you know anything about flight training, particularly military trainers, you would know the best instructors are assholes.

 

They are asshole becuase they allow you to make stupid mistakes only once so you can fly again another day. Yes, they are rude.

 

Why do you think Army Sergeants are such pricks?

They are trained to train you to stay among the living.

 

I'm sory if my application of aviation doctrine directed towards Anna was rude, but if she persues a career in aviation, she will meet much worse than me as a rooky pilot. Particularly in the north. That's life, the way it is. What else can I say.

 

No I have never climbed with Anna, this fact is completly irrelevant to this entire discussion.

 

Besides, since when did this forum grow manners, I'm not personaly atacking Anna. She is probably a great person. More reason to give Frank straight forward advise.

 

Trask on the other hand... well, if I could I would personaly Neuter him. I could do it so he wouldn't even feel it.

[Anna]

.....the ill-trained novices that climb without having a clue, and say things like "I should read more books" when they touch death without knowing it and walk away."

 

I did not walk away that easy...this will haunt me the rest of my life.

 

I'm done climbing. After reading these posts, not to mention the near disaster that I walked away from, I just feel like my heart isn't in it anymore. When I lived in Montana, I TRed or followed all of the time and I loved it. It wasn't till I moved out here that I wanted to try my hand at leading. Everyone was always so encouraging so I figured that I could learn to do it. I guess I will have to say it again to drive it home-I'm NOT properly trained, I AM an idiot when it comes to setting anchors, and it doesn't really look like I am ever going to have the chance to learn what with the time I can invest into it and climbing with partners who turn the other cheek or won't be honest to my face(I'm not talking about you shred). I hardly know anything about trad and I am a beginner at it, I have expressed that to everyone that I have climbed with, I don't know what the hell SK is talking about, and I don't think I want to learn anymore...I just don't want that responsibility no matter how good I could have gotten.

 

I DID NOT put anyone else's life in danger...that is exactly why I decided to back the fuck off.

 

Thanks JK for breaking my heart...I will remember it always.

[freeclimb9]

Anna,

most of the folks I climb with give excellent belays and happily follow. You don't have to lead to be a climber. Climbing is just another way to enjoy wildness. Climb with joy and an open heart, and you will be centered. PM me if you want to trip to Tucson and schweet climbing in a couple weeks. I'm headed back to my Arizona haunts for a good friend's wedding and would enjoy some sunshine climbs. Damn cold here already, and I'm not thrilled with early season thin and wet ice.

[sk]

Jk told you that day at smith out right to your face that the anchor you set was unsafe and offered to teach you to do it right YOU BLEW HIM OFF LIKE IT WAS NO BIG DEAL.

 

I want to point out that I realy care about you anna. BUT if you want to learn you have to let people teach you.

 

when you went with shred and mntranger I told you I didn't want to go you said you wanted to lead, I said i did not because I did not feel safe. I was there that was what I said.

 

I am sorry if you have taken anything I have said here the wrong way or personaly. we are all learning. I am glad you are not dead. I hope you do climb again. Please turn on your pm's.

[Anna]

when you went with shred and mntranger I told you I didn't want to go you said you wanted to lead, I said i did not because I did not feel safe. I was there that was what I said

 

[sk]

You and me at castle rock with shred mntranger highlander and tex right????