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Anna

I've been humbled

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what on earth are you guys doing here this weekend?

 

I learned an obvious thing today, don't climb thin stuff unroped over sharp rocks ! Cut open my hand and arm, smashed my hip and my shin on a rock and had to belay the rest of the day but was able to get a few pitches in before wimpering home. Now I feel and look like I was in a 5th grade brawl. Now I'll just have to stick to some wimpy AI4 tomorrow bwahahaha! [smile]

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necranomicon just scred me so bad I think I will stay home tomorrow tooo [Eek!][Eek!] (good points btw)

 

iain check your e-mail [Razz]

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How many of you have actually met Anna?

-not me

 

How many of you have never made a mistake while climbing?

-not me

 

How many of you read the subject line "I've been humbled?"

-I did

 

Instead of telling Anna she shouldn't climb or that she is a danger to the rest of the climbing "community", maybe some helpful advice would be more germane.

 

Climbing is elite, because it is dangerous, and sometimes difficult. How about helping a newbie along instead of blasting her for her attitude? I think she has probably learnt a lot from this near miss.

 

I would never judge a climber on one incident. One of my buddies who is sometimes on this board came _very_ close to falling off the top of the apron here in Squish (about 7p). I would still rope up to that person.

 

Rather than dismissing someone because of their attitude, I would ask what they learnt from their mistake, and see if that jived with my take on things. Anna might never lead again, or she might become the most solid trad climber in the world.

 

I almost rapped off the end of a rope once many years ago. [Embarrassed] Does that mean none of you would climb with me? To me it just means that I am extra careful when rapping.

 

I guess it is all in how you read things, as I do see some good points in almost everyones posts, but I think some of them could be a little less arrogant. Spray does nothing in this kind of forum. It does have its place though. [big Grin]

 

Less judgement and more guidance could be useful. [smile]

 

[ 11-02-2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: snoboy ]

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snowboy-

 

I have met and climbed with anna many times and have gently tried to encourage her to get more knowledge... I even tried to encourage her to NOT lead that day. Not to be a bitch BUT I DO KNOW ANNA> jk and I have tried to teach her and help her many times. I told her that i would not go over there and climb with her and the others over there becuase i did not feel safe with any of there leading ability on climbs that I know to be more difficult than the rating.

 

now I have to read the rest of your post.

 

sk

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jk's point is that this was, in our, experience not a one time thing. and yes I do and will continue to climb with anna. I just realy hope she learns from this and gets some books and learns to learn from the people arround her offering solid knowledge and experience.

 

If you want to learn you can not tell people that you already know.

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quote:

I told her that i would not go over there and climb with her and the others over there becuase i did not feel safe with any of there leading ability on climbs

If you all new this was an accident waitng to happen it would have been nice if you guys had givin me a heads up on that! All I knew about her ability is 3 pages of praise that anna is not clipping bolts any more. [Frown]

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I'm not sure how you could miss it... you all did forget to trail a rope on givlers... two pitches, three climbers [Roll Eyes] I don't mean to be a bitch shred, but you should know better and if you don't you should climb with someone who does. you were, in my oppinion, the most experienced climber in that group. Just because people are louder than you doesn't make them better.

 

[ 11-02-2002, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Muffy The Wanker Sprayer ]

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shred... I in no way think you are responsable for anything that happened. I asked anna that day if she was sure she wanted to lead... meaning I didn't think it was great idea. perhaps I should have been louder or said more, for that I am sorry. [Frown]

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NO!!!!! Anna should not have asked for it... how can you asses someone else when they do not represent themselves acuratly????

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I would say if a gear-ripping screamer, where the only pro that protects someone from splattering their brains is pro they did not place, doesn't wake someone up, no amount of harsh words on this site will do someone any further good. A long fall is scary and can give you the shakes. If that did not do the job than there is no hope. As far as I can tell, it did the job.

 

-Iain

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WTF!?!? seriously..it was her fucking choice...if she was a xtraght outta da box newbie, then you should be a lil responsible, but seriously she had led before and she knew her limitations and she blames no-one else and neither should you guys...even you shred, even though it was your rack, it was her decision... climbing is fucking dangerous and accountability for your partners should never have to include telling them what their experience level is...

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I set an TR anchor for some friends very much like JK describes. Once. It was my second or third lead outside, and on my two previous leads I'd the anchors included chains that I simply threaded the ropes through if my friends wished to TR the climbs (wasn't thinking about wear and tear on the chains at that point either). I topped out on this particular climb and found that their were no chains. No problem, I'll just clip a locker to each hanger, loop a couple of runners between each hanger, then clip three biners to the runners with the gates opposed over the top of the runners, lower off, and all will be well.

 

Both of my friends TR'd the route, then I headed up the route again to retrieve my gear and rap down. When I looked at the TR set-up I had installed again I immediately recognized my mistake and felt sick. I knew that in the unlikely event that one of the bolts serving as the anchor blew, all of the biners, the rope, and one of my friends would have gone careening to the ground. My negligence could have very well killed, paralyzed, or maimed one of my friends.

 

I felt so ashamed that once I rapped down I immediately explained what I had done wrong to my friends, apologized, and said I hoped that they could forgive me, but I'd understand if they couldn't. They put their faith in me and I blew it. Thanfully luck was on my side, but even after several years I think about what might have happened if it hadn't been. My friends trusted me with their lives and I blew it, big time. I vowed that I would never let that happen again, and if it did I would quit climbing altogether.

 

I try to remember that lesson often, and keep it in mind every time I set an anchor that someone else's life depends on. I got lucky once, but I have done everything in my power - including obsessing over anchor set-ups, setting up c-z systems in the yard, etc - to insure that luck never, ever plays a role in determining whether or not someone lives or dies as a result of an anchor I've set.

 

[ 11-02-2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Muffy The Wanker Sprayer:

NO!!!!! Anna should not have asked for it... how can you asses someone else when they do not represent themselves acuratly????

That is maybe why some people are a little touchy about tis whole thing. Climbing partnerships are based on trust. We have to believe that the person who says the are OK to do something really is. Otherwise we're all going to have to carry around certification cards from the Mounties or something [Eek!][Eek!] and that would sure suck!

 

Shredmaximus: you did the right thing if you truly believed that anna knew what she was getting in to. Muffy says you were the most experienced climber in the group though, and sometimes that carries responsibility. It can be hard though to realize that you are "the one" that day, especially if someone is louder than you.

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True but the fact is when you are climbing with random folks off the internet eventually somebody is going to mis-represent themselves and YOU have make the call and tell them no, or walk away.

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for me I guess I am still just trying to sort out my own feelings... I'm sure shred is as well. DUDE! stop blaming your self. It is no more your fault than it is mine. Hopefuly anna realy did learn from this. I know I did and it didn't even happen to me, the idea of loosing a friend is frightening. [Frown]

 

lets just all climb safely [smile] isn't that why we all do the double checking and backing up that we do??? so we can avoid the avoidable???

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Probably beating a dead horse, but . .

 

Anna -

 

It sounds like you keep putting yoursef in positions where 1) you don't know how to keep yourself safe; and 2) you either are unwilling or unaware that you should ask someone to teach you how to keep yourself safe:

 

First (per jkrueger) you set up a top rope anchor where if any of three pieces (either anchor biner or the cordellete) failed you would have died. A gumby mistake. Despite the fact that you didn't know enough to avoid this, you told an experienced climber that you were able to set up a safe anchor - totally wrong. Then you let others trust their lives to this anchor. You could have killed yourself or another person. You decided to do this even though other people were available to ensure that you could make a safe anchor.

 

Second, you led up your second trad lead ever, couldn't finish it and set up an anchor that failed. Again you could have died. You set up an obviously inadequate anchor and trusted it. You didn't have the knoweldge, instincts or humility to ask someone to either bail you out or evaluate your anchor.

 

Third (not in time order) You chose to take climbing advice and trust a person who beat himself up for not insisting you rappell of an anchor that failed. (Not realizing that doing so would have killed you).

 

Some people have inherently good judgement or instincts. They can look at a system and figure out how it works. Other people research things enough that they can learn how to set up safe systems. Finally, other people have a knack for choosing people to teach them who are qualified and can be trusted.

 

Unfortunately, it seems crystal clear that you have excercised none of these qualities(I'm sure you have many other wonderful qualities). It has been said cruelly and nicely, but you need to understand that at this point, you totally lack that certain something (except luck)that will keep you and (more importantly), the people you climb with alive.

 

Go find a certified climbing insturctor who can teach you how to keep yourself safe and limit your activities to what that insturctor explicitly authorizes. Your luck has saved your butt and the butts of those who climb with you so far, but it won't do so indefinitely.

 

Its one thing to screw up and risk your own life. Its another thing to screw up and risk the lives of those around you. You appear incapable of accessing your own skill level. Don't let other people suffer because of it.

 

[ 11-02-2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Matt Anderson ]

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is it cause she is a hot blonde that everyone want to shift blame? cause jsut cause she is hot, doesn't mean i wanna die by her hand... i like going out with people from this website and i trust tha peopel tell me the truth about their abilities...i have gone out with people on outer space metting peopel on this site... where do you draw the line? if ana told me that she wanted to climb outer space, R.O.T.C. or something, woudl it be her fault then, my hunch is no, but when lamebone made what may or may not have been a mistake EVERYONE was quick to jump on him... [Roll Eyes]

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quote:

You chose to take climbing advice and trust a person who beat himself up for not insisting you rappell of an anchor that failed. (Not realizing that doing so would have killed you).

I dispute that…because she decked anyway. The pin didn't do squat...maybe saved her a roll on the low angle slab below the dihedral. If rapping would have put less stress on the questionable anchor and it worked then she would have avoided that fall. I don't think the end result would have been much different.

 

...But it still would have been a gamble with unknown consequences. To be honest it was the first "what if" scenario I thought of almost a month after the incident. In hindsight the more prudent advice for me to give at that point, would probably have been to down climb or talk her though some sort of aided downclimbing thus not weighting the anchor.

 

[ 11-03-2002, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: shredmaximus ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Fence Sitter:

i have gone out with people on outer space metting peopel on this site... where do you draw the line?

I don't do stuff that is challenging for me with new partners unless they come highly recommended from people I trust. That's it. That's the line for me.

 

I also try to see what's going on when they are setting anchors and stuff, before I trust my life to them. If you have somne experience you can often pick up the deadly gumbies pretty quick. Not always though. So I wait to stick my neck out. Example - I would not climb Outer Space with a new partner. Period.

 

I will put myself in the position of the most experienced though, and bring people up their first multi-pitch or something like that.

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shred- two things

 

1) she did not deck (hit the ground)

 

2) if she would have rappled and it by some miracle had worked she would not have learned this hopefuly VALUABLE lesson.

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i didn't find outer space particularly challenging and it protected easily... i trust taht when someone tells me they are experienced at climbing hard 10's multi-pitch and i am comfortable with the same...but mabe i am jsut a rare person that values honesty... [Roll Eyes]

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Hey I've got a question. Did Anna learn? I think shredmaximus said at some point that her gear up to the pin was good. So what went wrong with her anchor.

 

Maybe we could all help her figure that out.[insert group hug graemlin [Wink] ]

 

Anna are you still listening to this thread? What can youtell us? Or shred for that matter?

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