fenderfour Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 I've used the daisies and they kick ass. Has anyone used the aiders or anything like them for aid routes? Is a traditional 4 aider system faster than a 2+1 easy aider system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 aiders are aid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolscongress Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 i've used them, but only twice on short things. i'm getting the feeling they'll be a bit faster once i get used to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Your going to get lots of different opinions about what aider systems are the best. I use two single aiders on their own keylock carabiners for everything below c/a3, for anything harder i would use 3 single aiders, two for standing in, one for bounce testing. i think the two sets of aiders system causes too much fluking cluster, is over complicated, and heavy. I think for full on aid routes (not just a pitch of two of aid) the metolius easy aiders would suck because you would be constantly re-adjusting them instead of just sticking your feet in and out of rungs. Note: the two single aider system puts you in greater jeaoapardy of dropping an aider so for longer routes i throw a lightweight metolius alpine aider in the bottom of the haulbag just in cause. Just a comment about metolius easy daisies, I don't know if you've ever looked at the breaking strength of them but its somewhere around 300 lbs. In my opinion that is way too weak to hold up to the rigors of loads that could accompany big wall climbing. Though you should take all efforts to avoid them, static falls onto daisies do happen, and would snap those easy daisies in a second (but maybe thats good, better than your back). though they wear out realatively quick and are somewhat expensive I use and recommend the yates wall daisies. they rock. just some food for thought, . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolscongress Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 i found that adjusting the aiders was faster than moving my feet into the steps, esp. the tops, where the wall is pushing back at you, or when it's windy. made jugging easier too. i've never been an exceptionally fast aid climber, so maybe if i dialed in my technique on the old school ets i'd have the same result, but for me the metolius rigs are nice. the daisies do wear out pretty fast. i don't remember there being a huge difference in strength between them and the regular kind, but if so, it's something to consider. oh, and the easy aiders are padded as hell, which is easier on the feet, esp. if you're wearing rock shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Just a comment about metolius easy daisies, I don't know if you've ever looked at the breaking strength of them but its somewhere around 300 lbs. Evidently Metoloius developed that rating out of a fear of liability should the daisy be miss-used. The carabiner is clipped into a small loop of webbing located within a much bigger loop that one grabs with their hand to adjust the length of the daisy. If the carabiner is loosely clipped into that much bigger loop then the breaking strength is 300 lbs. When used correctly it is much, much stronger. Webbing gets frayed pretty quickly but is replacable for like $5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Perhaps you've replaced the adjustable webbing on your easy daisies to something stronger? I've talked a guy who took a daisy fall onto his easy daisy and had it snap. Do the wife a favor and tie in full strength at the belay but this doesn't really apply to the aiders, as it seems unlikely that you'd shockloads your aiders. The one thing I would imagine is that extending your aiders all the time on a big wall would be a fat pain in the ass. The adjustable daisies I use (yates & metolious) are kind of a pain to be extending after each move. but who knows, maybe it's easier with em on your feet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 (edited) I agree with everything Foolscongress said, but I'm going to expand on my own opinion because I'm bored and there's no good spray. I have very little experience aiding, but I have the metolius easy aiders and daisies and like them a lot. I got them for 75% off at the TNF store sale. I think I prefer the Yates daisies, but the Metolius aiders have been great in my experience. I think it's definitely faster to adjust them up and down than to try to work your feet in and out of reg aider steps and I like knowing that my foot is NOT going to slip out of the step - something I frequently worried about when using regular aiders. Worked great for me on Liberty Crack (my first multipitch aid climb). I think for jugging it's nice to be able to have your feet exactly at the level you want them rather than having to choose one step or another. Edit: OH! And for aiding while wearing crampons (Attn: Colin and other NR Stuart hopefuls) I think the Metolius aiders would be the bee's knees. Edited January 27, 2005 by Alpinfox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwalling Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 I use 2 yates ladders on everything I do. I hate adjustable daisys too. So naturally I will never touch these adjustable aiders and will continue to think they are retarded. I've met a fair number of "good" aiders and they all seem to think they are a joke. Note: the two single aider system puts you in greater jeaoapardy of dropping an aider so for longer routes i throw a lightweight metolius alpine aider in the bottom of the haulbag just in cause. How would this happen??? I always have the daisy attached to the biner. I think it's definitely faster to adjust them up and down than to try to work your feet in and out of reg aider steps and I like knowing that my foot is NOT going to slip out of the step I don't know any really fast aid climbers using them. But whatever works for ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retired Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 I climb a lot of aid and was given a set of the easy aiders. I gave them a good test and I'm back with my Yates wall ladders, just 2 for all aid. the easy aiders are great for jugging however and if you have a compatable partner a good system might be to trade off lead and cleaning set ups. I also prefer the Yates adjustable not only because of the increased saftey factor(they are rated at 1.5K) but you can also release them under load...impossible with the Metolius adjustable. I have witnessed my partner taking a daisey fall on a newer metolius adjustable and it held (180 lb + heavy rack), friends that work for metoliius tell me they actually test out around 1K but they won't rate them that high. those that really know swear by the russian aiders just to make things even more complex....but hey that's aid climbing in a nutshell. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolscongress Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 retired and bigwalling: are you using the euro ladder style yates rigs? how are they? those are the only kind i have never tried, and it seemed they would solve the usual problems (steps closing, wind problems, etc.). out of curiousity, what did you find inconvenient or problematic with the easies? what makes them slower for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retired Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 If you are using adjustable aiders and adjustable daisies there is just too much adjusting going on and the cluster factor becomes intolerable. In additon if you ever have a problem with the adjutable daisies getting twisted around (everyone does) intensify this by about double for the aiders with their added length. The wall ladders are just a straight up and down ladder with seven steps, not like and aider that has steps to either side, that ambidextriousness (is that a word?)is how I get by with just two. With the Yates the steps are two inches wide, there is a great plastic grab handle and loop at the top, the second and third steps from the bottom have a little elastic band sewn under the step that you can attach to keep your foot in while jugging, they are a little heavy but just going with two more than makes up for that. I'm now in my second period of big wall climbing and couldn't believe how much the gear has improved from my first addiction in the late 70's early 80's cam hooks, hybrid aliens, and adjustable daisies make things a lot easier and cleaner, jugging with one ascender and gri gri, leading in blocks with short fixing, all great inovations to help speed things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 retired & bigwalling: One more question When using just two Yates aiders how do you have them set up? Sounds like each daisy is permanently clipped to one aider. How do you go from piece to piece? After testing with one aider and getting on a piece of gear, do you clip the second daisy/aider into the biner of the first daisy/aider, while you sus out the next placement? Assuming this is the case I would guess that the ladders are slightly offset, is this at all an issue? Thanks DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogen Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 I am not a serious aid climber, but the little I have done is mostly in the adjustable aiders. I love them! Waaay faster than the other clusterfuck when you get used to them. The only problem I have is that the buckles get underfoot when stepping up to a ledge - very treacherous! Because it is attached to your foot, you can't just step out, and the metal buckle dangles just under your foot. I can see how someone with a lot of experience with the step type aiders would have trouble "adjusting," but if you are just starting, I suggest you give them a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwalling Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 I use a single yates ladder which is clipped to a bent gate petzl spirit as is the daisy(regular style). I test a lot of times on the daisy. Offset... that isn't really a problem. I sometimes clip the second aider to the peice but a lot of the time I just stand in one. Adjustable aiders make no sense for real aid climbing, you have to climb up and down the aiders sometimes to test the gear, I don't see how adjustables would be faster. Please show me guys doing hard routes with these. I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone. With the yates you don't even have to look at your feet a lot of the time. Here is a picture of Ammon useing the same system... he is where i got the idea from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogen Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 um, yeah, that would be awfully hard to do with the adjustables. Maybe use the adjustables and carry a ladder for the odd overhang?? Once the hand motion accompanying loosening and tightening the adjustable is second nature, moving up or down is way simple, and you never have to look at your feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolscongress Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 hahahahaha great picture. i never thought of that. it's been too long since i did any serious aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 regular aiders, regular daisies and a kong adjustable fifi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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