Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • olyclimber

      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
Sign in to follow this  
Jarred_Jackman

Death at the Coulee

Recommended Posts

quote:

Originally posted by Fence Sitter:

i was checking out and a static 10.5 mill is about 27kn breaking strenght and has an elongation of 3% whereas dynamic ropes have about 9 kn breaking strength, but have 7.5% stretch...

No hostility intended here, but the 9kN figure is the not the breaking strength of the rope, but rather the maximum impact force that the rope will generate in a factor two fall. Any UIAA certified single rope will handle a load well into the high 20 kN range before breaking.

 

Count me in with the folks who think there is just no way that either Erden or Goran would have failed to recognize that they were tying in with a static rope. Try actually threading a static rope through a belay device or tying into a harness with one and see what you think.

 

We're all speculating here, but I think Ray had it right - first piece blows, biner on the next piece breaks, and the rest fail. The fact that so many pieces blew in series stongly suggests that at the time of the fall they were not optimally situated in the rock. Could have walked, could have been the original placement, certainly could have had something to do with the characteristics of the basalt. We'll probably never know the full story - but hopefully learning as much as possible about what actually happened will provide some comfort for his friends and family.

 

[ 10-02-2002, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Paul detrick:

the #3 would have been the top peice up by the small ledge which is where the climb gets wide, above this you would need a #4 or big hex(#11) it would seem this peice pulled and than the biner broke on the #2. This peice was set great, I would have done the same. This peice was five to ten feet below the ledge.

Question: how was the #2 placed? would the biner that broke at the end of the quickdraw been pulled onto an edge? anything obvious that would have pulled/pushed the gate open?

 

Another question: have you looked for the missing bit of the biner? I understand the sheriff has the wiregate and the stem, and not the nose and the hook.

 

Erden.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by proper:

Erden wrote: "Just before I looked down to my feet while belaying, I saw him near the top, with a piece of protection by his foot. "

 

Has anyone considered the notion that Goran might have accidently kicked/knocked his last piece of pro when falling....might explain why that piece came out.

I think the one that I saw is the next to last piece (#2 Camalot) that actually stayed in the crack the biner of which broke. It is certainly possible that he may have kicked the last one at the beginning of the fall...

 

[ 10-02-2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by jon:

...the reality is that even a world class climber who may seem immortal to many can die at a place as benign as Vantage.

How true, and how human.

 

E.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The #2 was set well,yes it could have been pull in to the side of the crack and the gate open,thus making it fail. I have not been back, but if I get some time I will look for the rest of the biner. Im glad you are working thru this, and wish you the best. I don't know who said it but they were right, things like this make me more aware that I need to watch what I'm doing. PEACE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another question i would like to raise is the helmet. It looked like a bike helmet when we were climbing, but it was a Meteor climbing helmet. The helmet was destroyed. Not that it would have helped in such a fall, but don't think a climbing helmet should end up in a half dozen small pieces after a fall.

 

[ 10-03-2002, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: fixedPin ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I know the Meteor IS a bike helmet. This was its intended use, sport climbing at the crags. I choose not to wear one more for the reason that if you are hit by one rock you're likely to be hit by two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by fixedPin:

Another question i would like to raise is the helmet. It looked like a bike helmet when we were climbing, but it was a Meteor climbing helmet. The helmet was destroyed. Not that it would have helped in such a fall, but don't think a climbing helmet should end up in a half dozen small pieces after a fall.

Below are the picture of the helmet, and a link to the Petzl product page. The helmet had a styrofoam lining and a plastic shell on the outside. After the accident, the more rigid plastic shell had separated from the styrofoam, and chunks of styrofoam were strewn about.

 

It is my speculation that the styrofoam got pressed between Göran and the outside shell, therefore popping the shell off the styrofoam lining core of the helmet, and destroying the lining.

 

The fall was so high off the ledge, and the impact so powerful that perhaps only a Kevlar military helmet would have worked, which would have transferred the impact to his spine. The result I am afraid would have been the same.

 

Erden.

 

-

Petzl Meteor Helmet

 

[ 10-05-2002, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was hestitant to bring this up out of respect for a fellow climbers death and the grief of his friends,family and climbing community, but there's been enough other sidebars so I will.

 

It took awhile for it to register, but the almost exclusive use of camming devices on the pitch is something a couple of my partners and I have talked about over the years. I tend to protect like Goren did, plug the cams - fast, usually solid. Where my buddies prefer using mostly chocks, or at least as good mixture (I'm talking where you have a choice between 2 acceptable placements). The discussions have influenced me, because I've noticed that I've purposely mixed pro more in the last couple of years. I can't help but wonder what a solidly place chock higher up would have done? [it's been a few years since I led Air Guitar and my memory of the crack has faded - it's probably mostly parallel sided...]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by russ:

I was hestitant to bring this up out of respect for a fellow climbers death and the grief of his friends,family and climbing community, but there's been enough other sidebars so I will.

 

It took awhile for it to register, but the almost exclusive use of camming devices on the pitch is something a couple of my partners and I have talked about over the years. I tend to protect like Goren did, plug the cams - fast, usually solid. Where my buddies prefer using mostly chocks, or at least as good mixture (I'm talking where you have a choice between 2 acceptable placements). The discussions have influenced me, because I've noticed that I've purposely mixed pro more in the last couple of years. I can't help but wonder what a solidly place chock higher up would have done? [it's been a few years since I led Air Guitar and my memory of the crack has faded - it's probably mostly parallel sided...]

Russ: This is a legitimate and a relevant question; have no fear.

 

Perhaps the #1 Camalot would have stayed had the placement been in a constriction in the crack. #2 Camalot did stay, except for the biner. Goran did have chocks (wired nuts) with him, however shortly after the start of the climb, the crack widened enough to warrant the use of larger camming devices.

 

Had the biner not broken, and the #1 held, he would have survived. The #3 TCU possibly would not have saved him even if it did stay in the crack, as there was already too much rope out.

 

Erden.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Russ, I don't think you are being disrespectful. The point that the cams may not be totally secure in the parallel sided cracks at Vantage has already been raised here and your suggestion to place nuts where possible is probably a good one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Usually on this type of helmet the outer shell is just for decoration and does not add to the helmet strength. Still find it quite disconcerting that the helmet was so destroyed. If a climber takes a tumble or as mentioned before hit by several rocks, what use is a helmet that is only good (possibly) for one impact? I'll take the chance on the spinal injury and save my head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe the Meteor was simply a compromise in safety by Petzl to get helmets on sport climbers and to get over the apparent dork-factor of the more appropriate head protection out there. Use of a polycarb. helmet should be a mark of advanced ability rather than the school marm image some may attribute to it. From erden's description though, nothing would have helped here. Impressive enough that he was wearing any helmet at a so-called sport crag, in my opinion. A very similar fatal head injury at Smith we responded to a few years ago highlighted the need for a helmet on even sport climbs at times.

 

This is getting off track, however, as erden says, it would be difficult to see survival under any circumstances from that distance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My condolences to all affected by this tragedy, especially to the family and friends of Goran.

 

I have a technical question regarding the incident. I believe it was the #2 camalot which held, yet the 'biner broke. I have a habit of occasionally clipping my qd through a 'biner on my cam sling, which means I have a 'biner through a 'biner. Any chance this might have happened? Would this significantly increase the chance of a 'biner breaking? It seems as though the chances of cross-loading would increase, and now that I think about it, I'm gonna stop doing this, but might there have been such an occurence here? Does the broken 'biner indicate which way the load was applied to it? Has anyone seen it? Just curious.

 

I hope everyone involved is doing ok.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by iain:

I believe the Meteor was simply a compromise in safety by Petzl to get helmets on sport climbers and to get over the apparent dork-factor of the more appropriate head protection out there.

I haven't seen the Metor, but I would have thought that deforming foam would better absorb the impact of a catastrophic impact... hmmm... guess I need to see it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

I have a habit of occasionally clipping my qd through a 'biner on my cam sling, which means I have a 'biner through a 'biner. Any chance this might have happened? ...and now that I think about it, I'm gonna stop doing this...

My understanding has always been that fewer links in the "chain", as it were, the better. Clipping directly into the cam's sling, IMHO, with your qd is the best way to go.

 

Regarding this possibility in Goran's case, Paul or maybe Erden could ascertain this from the gear that was brought down off the route.

 

Hat's off to you, Erden, for being able to discuss this as extensively as you have. Condolences to all those close to Goran.

 

Greg W [big Drink]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know, it might. The meteor is supposed to destroy itself to absorb energy. At that pace, though, my guess is that it was obliterated w/o helping too much. Subjectively, I think a solid shell would help more. There's only so much you can expect of any helmet in this circumstance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it was the rope-bearing biner on the draw that failed, rather than those attached to the pro?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really want to see that 'biner. I'm still amazed by the amount of equipment failure involved. More than amazed. Shocked, actually, and that's why I'm so burning to figure this out....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read a report a few years ago in Accidents in North American Mountaineering that sounded similar to Goran's. In this case, someone took a moderate length fall thatpulled the first piece. Apparently, the rope stretched while pulling the first piece and did not have time to recover when hitting the next piece. At this point, it was similar to a static rope and broke a caribiner. Perhaps this is what happened to Goran - how else can you explain the damage to the gear?

-Steven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Steven Kalinowski:

I read a report a few years ago in Accidents in North American Mountaineering that sounded similar to Goran's... -Steven

Steven, can you tell us which year's ANAM that was? I'm sure many of us would want to read that report.

 

[ 10-03-2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually that makes some sense. It doesn't require a lot of gear to fail under a "normal" load. The shock load of a long fall onto a streached rope would be about the same as a static rope fall and could exceed the limit on the 'biner. It doesn't comfort me much with that thought. It might be a good time to invest in some screamers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Gordonb:

It might be a good time to invest in some screamers.

I think that might be a bit much. Countless people have had similar falls as this and the pro has performed exactly as needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Lambone:

Doesn't it seem weird to you that a fall that generated enough force to break a carabiner and pull three big cams, only gave Erden a minor robe burn on his arm? He says that he didn't even feel it pull on his belay device...

Lambone: Have you seen Erden's injury? I have and "minor" is not the right word to describe it. If you haven't seen it, why would you make this assessment?

 

Please be patient as the post accident analysis is being done. I think your "Doesn't it seem wierd ..." comments are inappropriate at this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Steven Kalinowski:

I read a report a few years ago in Accidents in North American Mountaineering that sounded similar to Goran's. In this case, someone took a moderate length fall thatpulled the first piece. Apparently, the rope stretched while pulling the first piece and did not have time to recover when hitting the next piece. At this point, it was similar to a static rope and broke a caribiner. Perhaps this is what happened to Goran - how else can you explain the damage to the gear?

-Steven

I was thinking that the piece above the failed 'biner was far enough above that the rope would have recoiled....

 

It seems that for the rope to remain in its maximal stretch phase long enough to act as a static line on the next piece of pro, the distance between pieces would have to be quite short, although the speed of the rope would be an important factor....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×