Blue Bags and related ethics

[Thinker]

I'm headed off to the Tetons this evening and have found myself pondering this point, based on a bit of background info I ran across:

 

Why does the 'blue bag' system, i.e. "pack it out", used (and accepted) so widely on Mt. Rainier and other places in the Cascades face so much resistance at other heavily used alpine areas?

 

Teton NP is facing a huge waste management issue with the recent removal of a high elevation outhouse on the approach to the Grand Teton, and all the locals are screaming loudly that the blue bag system is not acceptable. I personally don't mind being responsible for my trash/waste/impacts.

 

Does anyone have examples of other areas where the system does or doesn't work? Any other related issues to bring up?

 

Edited to correct Steve's last name: Added text as an afterthought: I've seen Steve Firebaugh (Seattle Mountianeers Climbing Class big dude) posting here recently....Steve how do your class participants handle waste management on official and unofficial trips?

 

[ 08-23-2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

[payaso]

Nothing eliminates the need for Blue Bags better than 2 Immodium 12 hours before the climb .

[freeclimb9]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thinker:

Why does the 'blue bag' system, i.e. "pack it out", used (and accepted) so widely on Mt. Rainier and other places in the Cascades face so much resistance at other heavily used alpine areas?

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Think, Thinker. Why would someone want to carry out their own shit, particularly when there's historically been a toilet available?

At the lower saddle in the Tetons --now that the shitter-with-a-view has been removed-- I predict that people will more often leave their shit rather than carry it out in the Reststop2 bags.

[erden]

Thinker: that would be Steve Firebaugh, and he posts as SEF here... Look for his profile and send him a PM.

 

Erden.

[Thinker]

quote:

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Originally posted by freeclimb9:

Think, Thinker. Why would someone want to carry out their own shit, particularly when there's historically been a toilet available?

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So there was an outhouse on the lower saddle, sh*t is still strewn all over the rest of the approach. Granted, the ls is one of the higher impact camps there, but where do (we) climbers get off layin a log and walking away from it ANYWHERE? It's all about responsibility. It sounds to me like the NPS is trying to force the issue (raise awareness?) a bit, here, by removing the famous potty pad.

 

quote:

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At the lower saddle in the Tetons --now that the shitter-with-a-view has been removed-- I predict that people will more often leave their shit rather than carry it out in the Reststop2 bags.

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sadly, I agree with you.

 

[ 08-23-2002, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

[Thinker]

quote:

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Originally posted by erden:

Thinker: that would be Steve Firebaugh, and he posts as SEF here... Look for his profile and send him a PM.

 

Erden.

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Thanks for the correction.....still a bit foggy this morn.....

[freeclimb9]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thinker:

So there was an outhouse on the lower saddle, sh*t is still strewn all over the rest of the approach. Granted, the ls is one of the higher impact camps there, but where do (we) climbers get off layin a log and walking away from it ANYWHERE? It's all about responsibility. It sounds to me like the NPS is trying to force the issue (raise awareness?) a bit, here, by removing the famous potty pad.

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I disagree that "sh*t is still strewn all over the rest of the approach" to the Lower Saddle. Anyways, the shit buckets at the Lower Saddle were maintained by helicopter. As I understand it, the NPS had issues with cost, accidents (they've dumped a few buckets over the years), and overflight noise (though noise has never been an issue with the numerous helicopter rescues). Mostly cost was the issue, and it was rising due to the increased numbers of trips the 'copter had to make with increased Saddle visitation. How this cost compares with distribution of the Restop2 bags, I don't know. And I don't think the shit-in-a-bag is the end of the story at the Tetons; it's a management experiment.

IMHO, to make the shit-in-a-bag work, a rebate of the entrance fee should be given for each filled bag. It would be a variation of Yosemite canning, and would keep at least a few marginal climber types in beer money --like an expansion of the Chongo nation's good works.

[terrible_ted]

Hi:

 

I think you're referring to Steve Firebaugh.

 

The Mountaineer's position is that members adhere to 'leave no trace' backcountry ethics. This means that participants in training courses are taught the essentials of waste management (including the use of blue bags in sensitive areas), and are expected to follow those guidelines, regardless of how they end up in the backcountry. Obviously (that's why they call it "ethics"), you can only teach people the appropriate behavior - it's up to them to apply what they've been taught. I'm pretty sure that this is way all of the 'backcountry schools' (Alpine Ascents, NOLS, Mazamas, RMI, etc...) deal with the issue - it's the only policy that you can defend as an organization.

 

On some of the snow field trips which involve large numbers of students in a relatively small area, there are occasions where a portable latrine (i.e. big garbage bag... ) is set up for the entire group. Some lucky soul is invited to haul it down (hopefully by sled...) at the end of the outing. Unfortunately, the really big garbage bags usually only come in black or silver.

 

I always prefer the maxim 'go before you go.' The fewer blue bags I have to carry out, the better... Of course, there's been more than a few occasions where I've had a pretty grim look on my face on the last bit of a hike out...

 

-t

[Thinker]

quote:

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Originally posted by freeclimb9:

And I don't think the shit-in-a-bag is the end of the story at the Tetons; it's a management experiment.

 

IMHO, to make the shit-in-a-bag work, a rebate of the entrance fee should be given for each filled bag.

---

I wholeheartedly agree with you on both of these points.

[pindude]

Can't help but weigh in on one of my favorite topics...

 

Payaso, Power Bars without water also help to do the same thing, but I would hate to be around when the effects are wearing off, especially if it was me or my climb partner still trying to make our way off a wall. Better to have the poop tube, blue bag, or whatever system appropriate for the environ and the climb.

 

As far as social resistance goes, this is pure speculation on my part, but those of us in the NW with the Cascades, Coast, and Rockies ranges in our backyards are more intimate with the alpine environment, understand the ramifications if everyone in high-use areas just left their shit all over, and thus are more accepting of carrying it out. In the Cascades with great numbers congegating toward the volcano summits the need for packing out is obvious. It is less obvious when climbing in places where there are less people, such as in the Coast and Rockies ranges, and some of the less-trodden areas of the Cascades. Teaching mountaineering classes here in Spokane, once the problem is explained to students there is an initial revulsion to the whole idea of blue bagging, but they quickly accept the need to pack it out. Hey, it's not a problem if it's double- or triple-bagged, and disposed of immediately (and not forgotten about and left in the pack in hot summer temp's).

 

The Tetons, on the other hand, have visitors from all over the world, and in particular there are traditionally more visitors from the eastern US. Could it be that because of their lack of real mountains (except for maybe the Presidentials, ooh, now I'm going to get it) there is less appreciation about the impacts of climber--and other users'--human waste in an alpine environment?

 

I've also noticed on the trailhead and at basecamps on Shasta the resistance of some people to want to use their kitty-litter system, and perhaps this attitude is due to neophytes first being faced with the proposition.

 

--pindude

[Thinker]

whoops

 

[ 08-23-2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by freeclimb9:

IMHO, to make the shit-in-a-bag work, a rebate of the entrance fee should be given for each filled bag. It would be a variation of Yosemite canning, and would keep at least a few marginal climber types in beer money --like an expansion of the Chongo nation's good works.

---

Right on, freeclimb, you should forward this idea to Tom Kimbrough and Renny Jackson. I can see it now, just like the dudes in the Valley are scrounging up aluminum, we'll have another type of dude at the Lower Saddle offering to carry out everyone else's shit bags.

[pindude]

Can't believe all the quick responses to Thinker's original post...in the span I tried to do my work and reply, there are several replies much better reasoned out than my own initial one, including yours, tt.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by terrible ted:

...The Mountaineer's position is that members adhere to 'leave no trace' backcountry ethics. This means that participants in training courses are taught the essentials of waste management (including the use of blue bags in sensitive areas), and are expected to follow those guidelines, regardless of how they end up in the backcountry...I'm pretty sure that this is way all of the 'backcountry schools' (Alpine Ascents, NOLS, Mazamas, RMI, etc...) deal with the issue - it's the only policy that you can defend as an organization.

---

Is true of all I have seen, including even large, guided parties.

 

quote:

---

On some of the snow field trips which involve large numbers of students in a relatively small area, there are occasions where a portable latrine (i.e. big garbage bag...

) is set up for the entire group. Some lucky soul is invited to haul it down (hopefully by sled...) at the end of the outing...

---

In Spokane in the past, we would pick a person to carry out the "group bag," someone who made themselves worthy of it. We now have each individual carry their own out, but we have a marked or wanded common area where people can do their business.

 

quote:

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I always prefer the maxim 'go before you go.' The fewer blue bags I have to carry out, the better... Of course, there's been more than a few occasions where I've had a pretty grim look on my face on the last bit of a hike out...

---

On a hot day, it sure can cut short those on-trail conversations with beautiful women.

[fleblebleb]

quote:

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Originally posted by pindude:

In Spokane in the past, we would pick a person to carry out the "group bag," someone who made themselves worthy of it. We now have each individual carry their own out, but we have a marked or wanded common area where people can do their business.

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Huh...? I'd heard the Spokane way was a variant of the smear method, pick a worthy person and everybody smears on that individual.

[terrible_ted]

quote:

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On a hot day, it sure can cut short those on-trail conversations with beautiful women.

---

Yeah, that's a problem I run into a lot...

 

I'd like to think my wife picked me for my ability to smile when completely full of shit...

[wdietsch]

qb]

At the lower saddle in the Tetons --now that the shitter-with-a-view has been removed-- I predict that people will more often leave their shit rather than carry it out in the Reststop2 bags.[/QB]

 

I certainly hope not.

 

I was there last week and had no problem using the reststop2 unit. On the same platform as the "normal" shitter the rangers have a stool similar to what you would find in an out house with a toliet seat mounted to it. Taking the reststop2 and fastening the unit like you would a standard garbage bag into a garbage can, rolling the end of the bag around the lip of the toliet seat and pulling on the draw strings, works well. When finished seal it up and pack it out. I found this to be much "cleaner" than the blue bag routine, and as the ranger will point out they can be used more than once, unless of course you are Trask and live on horsecock, CheezWhiz and Stout(messy).

Personally I think they should do away with the crappers @ the lower saddle permanantly and instate a system such as this for good.

The reststop2 is currently mandatory at the lower saddle and optional at all lower camps. Personally I feel hikers and climbers in the lower sites should adapate this or a similar system as well. The waste problems will only continue to grow unless we are proactive as a "community" to offset it.

 

ps ... last week the weather was awesome and the view from the "stool", although a bit "airy" is very cool

[pindude]

Originally posted by fleblebleb:

 

quote:

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Huh...? I'd heard the Spokane way was a variant of the smear method, pick a worthy person and everybody smears on that individual.

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Whoa, haven't seen that one yet... Nice troll, though.

[Thinker]

surfing a bit here at work....interesting report. Can't believe I beat Trask to it, though he'd have probably just snipped the photos and posted them.

Human Waste in the Alpine Environment

[allthumbs]

Nope, you've got me pegged all wrong. I'm cleaning up my act, and staying away from this shitty thread.

[ILuvAliens]

stop breeding. to many people.

[Jason_Martin]

Backcountry Waste: Who Gives A Shit?

[thelawgoddess]

uh, for number 3, what should you smear it with?

[Guest]

I recommend to use something called a rock for dukey smearing.

[Alpine_Tom]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thinker:

surfing a bit here at work....interesting report. Can't believe I beat Trask to it, though he'd have probably just snipped the photos and posted them.

Human Waste in the Alpine Environment

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I just added another occupation to the List of Jobs I'd Never Do, No Matter What they Pay: "Fecal Smear Research Investigator"

 

"The purpose of this study was to place six fecal specimens each approximately equivalent to one daily bowel movement, on various snow surface gradients on the Muir Snowfield and then periodically take samples of snow from around and beneath the specimens. Additionally, follwing various lengths of exposure time, samples of feces were obtained from the surface of some specimens and from internal spaces within other specimens at various times between June and September 1999."

[Cpt.Caveman]

One time my parnter pooped on the summit of Sahale. I dook at the base of routes. Especially ice climbs.