Grady Roberts, found! And he is your buddy, not!

[Dane]

Here is what the discussion is all about...Dishman July of 2004.

 

I figure every climber is a cool guy or gal that I would want to share a beer with right up to the point when one of them lowers my personal climbing experience or vandalizes the rock I climb on.

 

There are two sides to every issue but I have yet to see the other side of these pictures.

Dishman will not stand as is. How it gets refurbished is up to those involved.

 

This is just a tiny bit of Grady's and others "art work" @ Dishman. There is a lot more. Tell me there are two sides to this kind of vandalism?

 

chipped holds on Martyangelo

 

Another set of chipped holds.

 

The river rock bolted on and chipped holds to complete Grady's "master piece", Been around the Block.

Bolts just to make the climb more "user friendly".

How about bolts you clip from the ground at an easy arm's reach?

 

route finding...a Sharpe marker.

 

Here is a good one...a glue on hold and a bolted on gym hold within reach of each other.

 

How about 5 bolts on less than 10 feet of climbing, where there was originally one bolt and natural pro was used. The first you now clip on the ground! All on a 15 year old 5.12. Two sides to every story?

 

A new bolt and a set of rap chains actually in the last and crux moves of the 5.11b, Rock 106, first done and an instant classic in 1987.

 

 

The 2004 line of bolts on the 1980 5.11a trad route, Klingon.

 

More recent bolted cracks at Dishman.

 

We are organizing a cleanup. It is a 5 hour drive from Seattle but if you are interested in our limited rock resources and willing to helping out please send me a private mail. You can even get in a bit of decent climbing while you are there

 

For Grady's comments you can look here.

http://inlandnwrock.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=54&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[AaronB]

Dane, why don't you keep your personal Flame war in Spray. Or even better, keep it at Your BBS

[leearden]

dane,

since you've chosen to delete my opinion/post on your bbs that:

your arrogance in describing climbs you may or may not have climbed first as "your creation", speaks volumes about your personality.

I've met plenty of arrogant sport climbers with this same affliction ( some of whom you like to unfairly portray on your unfairly edited bbs ) but you take the cake.

Your climbing skills do not give you the right to take possession of a particular route or crag, and that's what this is all about right? You feel you own routes you think you did first. you think you are justified in further degradation/vandalism by chopping aberrent ethics into your own definition of what is right.

 

I look forword to meeting you, picking up garbage with you, climbing with you, and having a fair conversation with you where you can't delete my replies next week at Dishman.

 

p.s. Grady is my buddy and for you to imply otherwise and libel him with this childish subject title further shows your overbearing attitude, megalomaniacal climbing ethic, and low class

[drater]

I've been thinking that 30-40 pounds of dynomite would turn Dishman into the INW premier bouldering area. Any objections? Other than Dane, of course. I'm still sitting on all these explosives since the Y2K scare, finally figured out how to use them. Anyone who wants to join me in "creating" a bouldering area can pm me. I plan on being there next weekend. Bring your earplugs!

 

Blowboarder

[olyclimber]

killer

[Dane]

 

 

Ya, a picture pretty much says it all doesn't it.

[Marty]

Dane, I'm not posting on your site till you start tolerating other people's thoughts and ideas. That's ridiculous what your doing to that forum. Im not typing for 15 minutes just to have it erased while all your commrades can blather on endlessly.

 

Item 1. WHO THE F#@* IS MARTIN CASH?

I've been climbing around here for some time and the climbing community isnt that big here. At least I've seen Steve Renyolds driving back from Chimney and he barely climbs but Martin Cash? What the hell have you ever done and why haven't I ever met you before? You spray so much that you must have a stack of routes under your belt or are you just a keyboard jockey bored at work? Which is it Martin, cause Ive never once seen you at the crags and Im at the crags a lot. Put up or shut up cause you're spraying about people that have done way more than you'll probably ever do. Hell, I bet you quit climbing before long anyway. You suck.

 

Item 2. Grady Roberts is a friend of climbing. Thanks to him (not all the work cause there are more people than you all would like to know about) Dishman is a very user friendly and pleasnt place to climb. The majority of people who read this forum would never take their time and money to create climbs, and Grady did, and he did it in his style. Get off his back. Just cause you don't agree with it doesnt' mean you can destroy it. Go fight cancer or something worthwhile, but leave the crag alone. It's way better now than it used to be. Thanks Grady and the rest of the people who gave sanity to those routes and made new ones.

 

Item 3. THE PHOTOS

#1 That's Dishman. You don't see the bolted on holds, bolts, chalk, graffitti, route names, water tower, garbage, bum camp, camp fire burn, syringes, glass or condoms. Why, because that would tarnish Danes argument. Show it all next time Dane cause it does matter.

 

#2 There are chipped holds at Dishman. I think they are better than bolt on holds because they are less visible but other people think differently. Besides, who am I to decide. I never went through the mountaineer program and just climbed at crags all over the world instead. No one really told me what to think so I've had to make it up on my own.

Fill the chipped holds in and do the route, but if you can't do the move without them then remove your fill and slink away. Besides, you'll find the natural cruxes above far more challenging than where the chipped holds are.

#3 That's actually a glued on flake that broke off. If you happen to try this route, you'll find yourself using it, Trust me on that one.

#4,#5 Been around the Block is the name of the 12a that Grady Created on an unclimbable section of cliff at Dishman. Not shown here is the sea of graffitti circling the route name. Where's that at? Guess I'll have to take my digital out to the crag. (Actually I did today but I got caught up climbing and next thing I new it was dark and I don't have flash. Maybe next time that stupid climbing obsesssion won't get in my way)

Before Grady people just tried the moves off the ground a couple of times then gave up. He built a good route here and who the F$&* am I to decide how he did it? It's a nice climb now even if you don't like to step on a gym hold and glue splotch.

If you take down this hold, fill in the others, and remove the splotch then you'll have to take down holds and splotches at Smith, Mt Charlstone, Potasi, Riggins, Leslie gulch, Spring Mtn., VRG, Yosemite, American Fork, Logan, Ceuse, Ardeche River Gorge, Cuenca, El Chorro, Potrero Chico, Limestone crags around Canmore, Skaha, Frankenjura, Wild Iris, Sinks Canyon, Kootenay Canyon, Little Si, Riffle, and on and on. This goes for #5 too. Get to it.

#6 Bolted on hold again.(The redundancy is killing me here. Dane are you trying to make it look as if there are more than 2 bolt on's here or what?)

#7 Damn strait. Gear or bolts not mixed. Mixed routes are the red headded step children of the route world. They sit in obscurity cause NEITHER trads nor rads will climb them.

#8 Grape ape now bolted. At least someone will lead it now. In my ten year climbing career, Ive never seen anybody lead a gear route at Dishman. Why would it start now? The crack is still there so have at it. Or chop the bolts on it and let another nice route languish in obscurity.

#9 Same as #8

#10 Same as #8

#11 Route name in Sharpie. Miniscule compared to the graffitti that Dane doesn't show. Easily removed with a little alcohol.

#12 Gartz + Spliffany is a route that I have never done at Dishman. I like how Grady gave it sort of an artistic flare although that Klingon graffitti detracts from Grady's artistic endevor. Judging by the extra time used to create the art, Gartz and Spliffany must be a stellar route that I will try next time I am there.

#13,#14 Two more photos of Been Around the Block. Yawn, the redundancy is killing me yet once again.

#15 Dane obviously has never led this route or he would know why the bolts are like this. This also gets rid of the single gear placement amongst the other 10 or so bolts that protect the rest of the route. Mixed routes are the hemmoroids on climbings' ass.

#16 Climbed Rock 106 (visitors, that includes Steve R. and Martin Cash, don't miss this route cause it's one of my favorites) this evening. Dane, might have been a while since you been on this one or you would know that the route is over at this point. You pull onto the start of the slab to a no hands and clip these anchors. All your missing is that pine needle infested slab and who cares about that?

#17 Klingon, the Force, and Grape Ape all have bolts next to them now. Do they protect the crack or are they just there for the extreme face climbing to the right of the cracks? I don't know but it sure makes those routes convienent to clip up now.

#18 Another victim caused by the water tower above. Grady didn't build the water tower (I think, but he's an industrious charachter at times) so we can't blame him for the seepage problem that's been created. However I look at it as good training when you have to grab wet holds. Makes you hold on tighter and get stronger. I think the water tower is good too.

See everbody at the clean up!!!

 

Item 4. Dane whats up with the beef with Dave Stevens? He's the only one of you guys left that actually goes climbing all the time which I respect. He's the nicest guy anyone could expect to meet and your beefing with him cause he hangs out with us or something? I don't know if its as bad as you make it sound but lay off a bit and maybe listen to the guy. He's seen both sides and knows what's up.

[Dane]

Yes sir, pictures of your fellow's handiwork seem to bring out the best of this conversation.

 

Marty, don't bother posting on INWR until you acknowledge what the real problem is at Dishman. It is the shit that you and Grady and others have done.

 

Until we get past that point there isn't going to be any merit in the discussion.

 

It isn't the garbage, the graffitti, water tower, bum camp, camp fire burn, syringes, glass or condoms. All that can be fixed with a rental truck and tractor and a few hours labor.

 

The problem is your little group of climbers that think you have it all wired and know what is best for the Dishman and climbing. That isn't likely to change from this discussion.

 

I have never met Sara or Grady but you and I have talked and I know Dave Stephens well. I am sure that all of you are very nice human beings, certainly seemed so. Problem is you aren't when it comes to protecting a limited resource, the rocks at Dishman and the use of a Bosch.

 

Like I told you on the phone I have more in common with you as a group than I have with many who would prefer seeing a lot more changed at Dishman that might really need to. Compromise can be a good thing.

 

You guys are beginging to get pissed from me poking you with a sharp stick? Guess where I started at after looking at your mess.

 

Stick to the subject Marty...the climber's garbage dump at Dishman.....which you have added to in a big way.

 

It isn't Martin Cash. Who the fuck are you Marty?

Wrote a shitty guide book and sent a few routes? BFD.

Tired of anyone impling otherwise about anyone involved, everyonew concerned is a climber...end of that discussion.

 

I am tired of all the bs you guys are capable of in this discussion. You don't deserve the respect that climbing hard would typically imply.

 

You want to get a case of the ass instead of own up to the fucked up mess you and Grady and others have created at Dishman? I already have one.

 

You can either deal with the rest of the climbing community or you can deal with the end result. Your choice.

Becareful what you ask for.

 

I could easily start by removing every hanger at Dishman and then move on to Deep Creek, China Bend and Marcus. Then I could do the same thing again a week or two later. That would get darn expensive

Neither is it an idle threat.

 

Do you all have the stones, pocket book and time for a bolt war? Think long and hard about that one before you answer, because I do.

 

What I would prefer to do is reach a compromise of what can go and what can stay at Dishman, clean the place up, set in place some sort of foundation so this doesn't happen again and then go climbing.

[slaphappy]

Yes sir, pictures of your fellow's handiwork seem to bring out the best of this conversation.

 

Marty, don't bother posting on INWR until you acknowledge what the real problem is at Dishman. It is the shit that you and Grady and others have done.

 

Until we get past that point there isn't going to be any merit in the discussion.

 

It isn't the garbage, the graffitti, water tower, bum camp, camp fire burn, syringes, glass or condoms. All that can be fixed with rental truck and tractor and a few hours labor.

 

The problem is your little group of climbers that think you have it all wired and know what is best for the Dishman and climbing. That isn't going to change form this discussion.

 

I ever met Sara or Grady but you and I have talked and I know Dave Stephens well. I am sure that all of you are very nice human beings. Problem is you aren't when it comes to protecting a limited resource, the rocks at Dishman and the use of a Bosch.

 

You guys are beginging to get pissed from me poking you with a sharp stick? Guess where I started at after looking at your mess.

 

Stick to the subject Marty...the climber's garbage dump at Dishman.....which you have added to in a big way.

 

It isn't Martin Cash. Who the fuck are you Marty?

Wrote a shitty guide book and sent a few routes?

 

I am tired of all the bs you guys are capable of a discussion. You don't deserve the respect that climbing hard would typically deserve.

 

You want to get a case of the ass instead of own up to the fucked up mess you and Grady and others have created at Dishman? I already have one.

 

You can either deal with the rest of the climbing community or you can deal with the end result. Your choice.

Becareful what you ask for.

 

 

Geez Dane, slow down and articulate what you are trying to say. Your gibberish makes no sense. I can almost see the foam emitting from the corners of your mouth.

 

I could easily start by removing every hanger at Dishman and then move on to Deep Creek, China Bend and Marcus. Then I could do the same thing again a week or two later. That would get darn expensive

Neither is it an idle threat.

 

Do you all have the stones, pocket book and time for a bolt war? Think long and hard about that one before you answer, because I do.

 

Now hold on a minute Dane. This is bullshit. Do you really want to be responsible for possibly screwin up access to so many climbing areas that will effect many climbers, far beyond those responsible for the atrocities at Dishman. You were at the WCC meeting last night, you know what's at stake around the state. This is not the answer. Chill out. Do what you need to do to your old routes but then move on. Your threats are childish and will only do harm to the rest of the climbing community and we don't appreciate it.

[RuMR]

Yes sir, pictures of your fellow's handiwork seem to bring out the best of this conversation.

 

Marty, don't bother posting on INWR until you acknowledge what the real problem is at Dishman. It is the shit that you and Grady and others have done.

 

Until we get past that point there isn't going to be any merit in the discussion.

 

It isn't the garbage, the graffitti, water tower, bum camp, camp fire burn, syringes, glass or condoms. All that can be fixed with a rental truck and tractor and a few hours labor.

 

The problem is your little group of climbers that think you have it all wired and know what is best for the Dishman and climbing. That isn't likely to change from this discussion.

 

I have never met Sara or Grady but you and I have talked and I know Dave Stephens well. I am sure that all of you are very nice human beings, certainly seemed so. Problem is you aren't when it comes to protecting a limited resource, the rocks at Dishman and the use of a Bosch.

 

Like I told you on the phone I have more in common with you as a group than I have with many who would prefer seeing a lot more changed at Dishman that might really need to. Compromise can be a good thing.

 

You guys are beginging to get pissed from me poking you with a sharp stick? Guess where I started at after looking at your mess.

 

Stick to the subject Marty...the climber's garbage dump at Dishman.....which you have added to in a big way.

 

It isn't Martin Cash. Who the fuck are you Marty?

Wrote a shitty guide book and sent a few routes? BFD.

Tired of anyone impling otherwise about anyone involved, everyonew concerned is a climber...end of that discussion.

 

I am tired of all the bs you guys are capable of in this discussion. You don't deserve the respect that climbing hard would typically imply.

 

You want to get a case of the ass instead of own up to the fucked up mess you and Grady and others have created at Dishman? I already have one.

 

You can either deal with the rest of the climbing community or you can deal with the end result. Your choice.

Becareful what you ask for.

 

I could easily start by removing every hanger at Dishman and then move on to Deep Creek, China Bend and Marcus. Then I could do the same thing again a week or two later. That would get darn expensive

Neither is it an idle threat.

 

Do you all have the stones, pocket book and time for a bolt war? Think long and hard about that one before you answer, because I do.

 

What I would prefer to do is reach a compromise of what can go and what can stay at Dishman, clean the place up, set in place some sort of foundation so this doesn't happen again and then go climbing.

 

Hey dane...is your last name nichols? Maybe dane is a nickname and you really go by "Ken Nichols"...coming from the east coast, the bolt chopping bullshit is L A M E...and its a weak threat...i gather that you don't live in the area, so the bolts will most likely be back the minute you get in your car and drive home...

 

deal w/ the rest of the climbing community? the way it sounds is that Marty, et. al have to deal w/ you? Why don't you seek out some sort of a consensus? You are being just as heavy handed as marty and his crew...the only real difference is you LEFT and they are still active in the area...

 

bolt chopping wars suck...nobody wins...grow the fuck up...and FWIW, i think the route name writing and bolt on holds suck ass and shouldn't have been done...couple of chipped in holds?? BFD...you send the problem w/o them, then fill them in and strut around like a peacock in heat...otw quit your bitchin'....

 

Oh, and deleting opposing thoughts on a forum that you are running is WEAK...

 

delete this

[Dane]

Now hold on a minute Dane. This is bullshit. Do you really want to be responsible for possibly screwin up access to so many climbing areas that will effect many climbers, far beyond those responsible for the atrocities at Dishman. You were at the WCC meeting last night, you know what's at stake around the state. This is not the answer. Chill out. Do what you need to do to your old routes but then move on. Your threats are childish and will only do harm to the rest of the climbing community and we don't appreciate it.

 

Guess we can disagree. I am tired of the lack of honesty in the Dishman discussion. 3 or 4 climbers aren't the community. But no question a bolt war is busllshit. War is typically bs. War is a waste of resources to make a point. It has nothing to do with "my" routes. That is not and has never been the issue at Dishman. The Dishman pictures are self explanitory. People just don't seem to want to play nice. That continues and I will cease to play nice.

[RuMR]

who appointed you the overlord??

[Dane]

Me, since you don't have the stones too. Any other stupid questions?

 

And yes, the intention is to be even more heavy handed than Marty and crew if that is what it takes.

[slaphappy]

Guess we can disagree. I am tired of the lack of honesty in the Dishman discussion. 3 or 4 climbers aren't the community. It has nothing to do with "my" routes. That is not and has never been the issue at Dishman. The pictures are self explanitory. People just don't seem to want to play nice. That continues and I will cease to play nice.

 

I doubt we disagree as much as you might think. I also think the bolt-ons suck and the "artwork" at the base is inexcusable. If someone pulled that shit in Leavenworth, I would quickly make it disappear. I certainly wouldn't be grand standing for months on a website and make threats to multiple areas. There is a community whether you recognize it or not, just as the offenders should have used better judgement so should you. Neither side to this "debate" is representing the interests of climbers as a whole.

 

Start training, lose some weight, and put up some new routes in the style you prefer, this would be a constructive way to lead by example.

[Dane]

this would be a constructive way to lead by example.

 

I have put up a few new routes in the last 35 years. You? I have no desire to lead by example. I have no interest in followers. I am more interested in the end result.

 

So far, as a group, there is little agreement on what the problem is. Dishman is a problem to me. Simple as that.

[RuMR]

Me, since you don't have the stones too. Any other stupid questions?

 

And yes, the intention is to be even more heavy handed than Marty and crew if that is what it takes.

 

wow...you are truly a man among boys!!! Good god the power of a crowbar...do you stroke it????

 

I got lots more stupid questions...here's one...

 

what happens to your glorious ascents of old when you get the place shut down cuz of some stupid jihad?

 

or here a more serious question...

 

How do you psyche yourself up to rage on those beefy bolts? you watch the whole series of rocky flicks end-to-end, slam 6 redbulls, smoke some crack and JUST RAGE!??

 

Have fun spending $$$ on gas to go over there and rip a couple of bolts out...

[RuMR]

ok...on a serious note, retrobolting older routes w/o first ascent concurrence is bad form, bolt on holds also bad form, bolt-wars really really bad form...

 

Why don't you meet w/ the actual guys doing the stuff, instead of Marty (he seems to just be reporting it via guidebook) and talk to them about them pulling their bolts off of your route? Why do this unilaterally?

[slaphappy]

you?

 

I fail to see how that is relevant since I'm not the one making threats or bolting on holds, but I'm sure I have done far more than you might think...I prefer to keep what I do to myself and immediate friends.

 

I find this whole discussion depressing, I'm goin climbing...

[MervGriffin]

"...is your last name nichols? Maybe dane is a nickname and you really go by "Ken Nichols"...coming from the east coast, the bolt chopping bullshit is L A M E..."

 

Actually, some of us see Ken Nichols as a kind of folk hero.[/b]

 

And check out these similarly-minded trad-cats at

The Pipeline

 

Their stated goals are:

"Dedicated to Preserving

ETHICS IN CLIMBING"

 

And their philosophy:

 

"...a group of INDIVIDUALS who believe that bolts should not be placed in the proximity of good gear. Climbing is both a mental and physical challenge. The rock should be respected and not desecrated for the sake of boosting one's ego.

One thing that has been destructive to climbing is the promotion of the "climbing community" concept. This notion is intangible. Those who use it have verbally conscripted anyone owning climbing shoes to "the community" and claim to speak your behalf."

 

Included therin is a Ken Nichols Commemorative Hall of Shame. Seems like Dishman deserves a trophy.

[willstrickland]

I think Dane is justifiably upset because those responsible for the actions that EVERYONE HERE has agreed are unacceptable...i.e. the route name grafitti and bolt-on holds, do not acknowledge that there is anything wrong those actions.

 

This, IMO, is the very root of the problem.

 

Regardless of how you feel about retro-bolting, convienience bolting, glue-reinforcement of suspect flakes, or chipping, I think 99% of the climbing community would agree that there is no place for bolted on gym holds or river rocks, nor graffitti at the crags.

 

I may be wrong about that, but all the climbers I know would view these actions as unacceptable. What will it take for those reposnsible to recognize that these actions are unacceptable?

 

Bolt wars ARE lame. We could also have a long discussion on who actually starts the bolt war...the person who places it or the person who removes it. In retro-jobs you probably know where I stand. But that is another issue for another time. I personally do not support convenience retro-bolting for "leading" when it is easily TR'ed. But that is my own opinion and I don't make any claim that the majority feel this way (unfortunately, IMO).

 

I ask you this: How many beginners and fairly new climbers end up climbing in a place like this? What impression do these actions give to them as far as what is the "standard" and what is acceptable. These practices (bolted on holds, grafitti, chipping), regardless of whether you embrace them or loathe them, ARE out of the ordinary and not generally accepted.

 

The first step in remedying this situation is an acceptance of that fact by those responsible.

[Alpinfox]

Having this big flame war on this website is not likely to do anything except further piss off the opposing sides due to name-calling and other stupid shit and give some land managers a view of the ugly underbelly of the climber usergroup. That said, I think it IS appropriate and possibly beneficial for people to express their opinions of this sort of bolting/route-making ethic here. Maybe the guys doing those route alterations have never had anyone (or maybe just one person) tell them that what they are doing is unacceptable to many climbers and this will modify their behavior in the future.

 

So here is my opinion:

No matter how nasty and garbage-strewn dishman is, I don't think climbers should tag the rock with route names. The fact that this was done makes me VERY suspicious of the ethics of the folks doing the route alterations out there. I also don't approve of bolted-on holds and bolted cracks in general, but I think I would have to see the routes in person to form an opinion in this case. Bolting a crack that is an established traditional route is BS. I don't think a route should EVER be chipped.

 

Let's try to keep the discussion civil, but get our opinions out.

 

Cheers.

[RuMR]

"...is your last name nichols? Maybe dane is a nickname and you really go by "Ken Nichols"...coming from the east coast, the bolt chopping bullshit is L A M E..."

 

Actually, some of us see Ken Nichols as a kind of folk hero.[/b]

 

And check out these similarly-minded trad-cats at

The Pipeline

 

Their stated goals are:

"Dedicated to Preserving

ETHICS IN CLIMBING"

 

And their philosophy:

 

"...a group of INDIVIDUALS who believe that bolts should not be placed in the proximity of good gear. Climbing is both a mental and physical challenge. The rock should be respected and not desecrated for the sake of boosting one's ego.

One thing that has been destructive to climbing is the promotion of the "climbing community" concept. This notion is intangible. Those who use it have verbally conscripted anyone owning climbing shoes to "the community" and claim to speak your behalf."

 

Included therin is a Ken Nichols Commemorative Hall of Shame. Seems like Dishman deserves a trophy.

 

Dwayner...do you see anywhere that i advocated bolts next to gear placements?

 

My INDIVIDUAL opinion is that ken nichols is an ass...and he doesn't necessarily represent MY ethics

Edited July 21, 2004 by RuMR

[RuMR]

Will/Alpinfox

 

I agree w/ your stance that retrobolting is wrong, as is the tagging and the bolt on holds are really really $hitty...my main beef is that any action taken by some vigilante (i'm sorry dane, but that's what you are, if you single handedly get in car, drive 4 hours and chop those bolts w/o discussion w/ the people who actually put them in) is totally wrong...The problem i see is that it runs the risk of getting areas closed...then, nobody wins, not traditionalists and not sport climbers...is this what you really want dane? Really???

[Dane]

First:

but I'm sure I have done far more than you might think..

 

It is a given...haven't we all. No clue who you are. Not really a part of the discussion is it? How about we stick to Dishamn instead of flexing every other post. Dick measuring can be done at home.

 

Second:

 

Bolt wars are lame. I'd rather be climbing in my spare time than arguing this horse shit.

 

Third:

 

The Pinnacles were closed for years. They are open again, state owned and well maintained. No one was thrilled when they were closed. But they are better now in every way.

 

Minne is now public property and again better for it. As Fulton mentions there was a time, in the not too distant past, when Minne made Dishman today look like a national park.

 

Fourth:

 

Poor stewardship of a crag takes away any right you have to climb there in my book. I don't care if Dishman is closed down for the short term. Maybe that is what needs to happen if the local protagonists think what they have done @ Dishman is OK. So it is not a fear for me, living here or in Spokane.

 

Fifth:

 

It is a hell of alot better to be pounding on the key board here than pounding on each other or letting a rotohammer or a breaker bar speak for you.

 

The suggestion is again for a meeting. We had one and one side showed. How about another with both sides in attendance?

 

Marty? Grady?

[sk]

ok...on a serious note, retrobolting older routes w/o first ascent concurrence is bad form, bolt on holds also bad form, bolt-wars really really bad form...

 

Why don't you meet w/ the actual guys doing the stuff, instead of Marty (he seems to just be reporting it via guidebook) and talk to them about them pulling their bolts off of your route? Why do this unilaterally?

Holy SHIT when did you guys move to oregon?? sounds alot like flagstone, except we don't have all the broken glass and stuff. I hope you guys can work this out some how. Seems to me that we all loose when this kind of bolt war happens. on a personal note, I realy think changing the "nature" of a route sucks ( ). replacing old spinners is