first ascent Mount "Chakachamna" First Ascent

[SnowDrifter]

I respect Fred and his many true summits, that's why I highly doubt he's going around telling people the trip was a success. To have some local claiming this so he can name the peak and maybe one day see his name next to a great in a guidebook is embarassing. I mean who says "I consider our effort a summit"???? I've had a lot of nearly successful trips but they I didn't ever claim that they were summits because the weather was shitty, I had a tired partner or we really were close anyways. Like I said I thought it was a great trip report but when I hear shit like this it gets me steamed. Why not sit at home with a guide book and add every summit to your resume' that doesn't have any technical difficulties between your couch and the summit. Considering the amount of people that freak over a bolt placed next to a crack, I'm surprised that I'm the only one saying something. I know this isn't the FA of any notable mountain but claiming a first ascent when you never stood on the summit definately deserves a few comments.

[DirtyHarry]

I've had a lot of nearly successful trips but they weren't summits because the weather was shitty, I had a tired partner and we really were close anyways.

 

Turned back twenty feet from the summit of the Tooth, huh? Bummer.

[Squid]

Everybody is very impressed that you're steamed, Drifter.

 

Way to hold these slacker's feet to the fire!

[SnowDrifter]

If you don't really care about whether you actually summit or not that's fine. I've done a lot of routes where the interesting climbing stops a few 100 feet from the summit and I don't bother finishing it off but those are climbing routes not summit attempts.

 

When you fly into some unclimbed peak for the purpose of doing a FA and are 100 yards away, if you want to tell everyone that you did it spend the extra effort to run up there. 100 yards should take what, 20 min at 8000m and 5min at 7000'?

 

I just don't get why someone that's so excited to tell everyone that they're the first person to climb a peak, wouldn't put in 5 min. to make it a reality???

[magellan]

He's an angry elf

[olyclimber]

unless you stand on tip top of the thin overhanging cornis then it is not a summit for some people, who worry about such things

[sexual_chocolate]

A summit is a summit. 100' or 50' or 1000' or twenty minutes away or 10 minutes away is not a summit. Sorry.

 

If I was close, but didn't actually summit, and I knew I didn't summit, for whatever reason, I would never claim an ascent of the mountain (and the naming rights to the mountain. Again, sorry....).

 

It sounds like you guys had a good trip regardless though. Kudos on a fun outing.

[Kraken]

this reminds me of an old thread of mine. I believe it was called "what qualifies as a summit."

 

I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with Mr. A-Fox or the Lord of the Cascades himself, but I would have to agree with the general concensus. If you didn't top out on the mountain, you didn't actually summit.

 

The dictionary describes 'summit' as

 

sum·mit Pronunciation Key (smt)

n.

 

1. The highest point or part; the top.

2. The highest level or degree that can be attained.

 

 

It never says "pretty close to the top."

 

I guess the reason it is such a debacle right now is because of the FA. Was the trip a success? Sure! Was it a legitimate summit? I would have to say no.

 

Either way, I'm not trying to take anything away from you or Beckey. It is a beautiful peak, I see the Torodrillos every day and would love to go out there and get an FA myself, but I just don't think you can claim a solid FA of that mountain based on the afformentioned information. It was a great report though, cool to read about it and see that Beckey is still out there doing it.

 

BTW, A-Fox, do you have any other pictures of the Torodrillos, taken from that trip...either aerial or land based? I'd like to see them.

[justplanecrazy]

unless you stand on tip top of the thin overhanging cornis then it is not a summit for some people, who worry about such things

 

I don't know, I think Drifter has a point. When you're doing a trip where a significant reason is to summit a mountain that hasn't been climbed, then you need to be honest about actually making it to the summit or not. Just look at what happend when the Slovenians claimed to have completed the new route on the Emperor Face.

 

I think Drifter is a little over the top, getting steamed over this, but you still have to be truthfull about claims especially summit claims. Alpinfox was far enough away that he was worried about the time it would take him to get to the summit and back to his party. That definatley doesn't sound like the difference between standing on a cornice or standing beside it, he was still a long ways from the summit.

[olyclimber]

well, if thats what the law book says for you, then it must be true.

just another example of how flawed the logic is here on this board.

[justplanecrazy]

So the Slovenians were actually the true FA's for Infinite Patience, despite everyone in the world telling them otherwise??? Or how about the numerous climbers that just couldn't make it the final 100' to the summit of Everest, or Logan, or Denali and thus didn't claim a successful summit nor were they entered into any records as having made it, should we go back and congratulate them?

 

It couldn't be that every single Alpine organization considers an FA of a peak to be reaching the summit and that maybe just maybe it is only a handfull of the people on this board that have a flawed logic??? Can you please define where the line is that you have to cross to call it a true summit then? Is it more than half way from the parking lot and no difficulties above or maybe it is 2/3 pie squared of the elevation minus the distance to sea level. A true ascent is a summit aka top of the freakin' mountain or the top of the intended route if it wasn't a summit bid. Please help me discover the true ways oh master

[olyclimber]

no problem with your argument friend, just the delivery. Notice the title of the person who posted this TR.

[Don_Serl]

Mount "Chakachamna" First Ascent????

Brook soon joined me and we looked over a slight rise and saw the summit about 100 yards away and less than 100' above us.... There were really no technical difficulties between ourselves and the "true" summit, so I consider our effort a "summit". If you don't, that's fine.

 

I'm not sure what caused this issue to surface a year and a half after the event (I missed it at the time), but it's clear there is a very fine-looking unclimbed peak out there in south-central Alaska called Mount Chakachamna.

 

The rules of mountaineering are very simple and very clear: when you stand on top, you've climbed the mountain; otherwise, you have not. With the minor exception of allowing people to not kill themselves by forcing them to walk out onto dangerous cornices to attain the actual highest point, no other action counts as a completed ascent.

 

Mr. Beckey himself was recently on a trip that accomplished the first ascent of a peak in Alaska (Oasis Peak) which had undergone a similar "near-ascent" 30 years ago by a BCMC party.

 

[To quote from the 1976 BC Mtneer: "Then the summit ridge was gained with a few 4th class moves. At this point we were about 200' from what might have been the highest mound of snow. It was not entirely clear where the highest point was. The ridge was badly corniced and the side to traverse was sunward and hence avalanching. As it was getting late, we beat a hasty retreat."]

 

[and AAJ 2001: "After swapping leads for 14 pitches, we were on top of the rock with roughly 150 metres of low angled snow separating us from the summit. At about 4 p.m. we got as close as we dared - 15 feet from the large summit cornice, which was baking in the sun."]

 

The latter party - Kelvin Vail and Jon Walsh - get credit for the FA; the earlier party - the very strong pairing of Neil Humphrey and Paul Starr (of Devil's Thumb and Cat's Ears Spire fame) - do not, despite their lising Oasis as a first ascent in the addendum to the relevant BCM article.

 

In the case of Mount Chakachamna, some later party will eventually come along to complete the first ascent of the peak that Mssrs Alongi and "Alpinfox" so nearly pulled off. Sorry guys, but Snowdrifter has it exactly correct: nice trip, great report, inspiring photos - but no FA!

 

cheers, don

[Kraken]

btw, does anyone here have any photos or information on the tordrillos? I'm particularly interested in the hidden peaks area as well as any other unclimbed peaks out there. I've got a great book on the tordrillos featuring climbs done there as well as climber history and stuff, but doesn't have many pictures that do justice. I'm going to go do some research at the USGS, but was wondering if anyone has photos...primarily aerial.

 

thanks

[W]

Clint,

 

Get in touch with Paul at TAT, at he has flown in there a few times and knows a little about the area. Another person who might be able to help you out even more is Tony Martin, a pilot who flies for K2 in Talkeetna. I'm not sure if Tony is around at the moment, but call K2 and ask. (oops rereading your post, I bet the book you have is the one with Tony's name on it...)

"The Otter" on AMF has also been in the Tordrillos also.

Good luck!

Edited February 19, 2006 by W

[brook_alongi]

Don't recall posting that I summitted?

 

Thanks for bashing me though.