IceIceBaby Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 I know it is an open question with may answers but due to the resent events what can one say we learn from it More trouble on Mount Rainier 10:52 PM PDT on Thursday, June 17, 2004 Park officials say there was bad weather on the mountain during the weekend, with 100 mile-per-hour winds at the mountain's high camps and extensive snowfall. I don’t know what’s up with this and why the climber cant/wont asset the writing on the wall and decided to push on I wonder is it b/c they have a tight schedule with no alternating plan based on weather prediction. It is hard not to see the vast opportunity of climbing in various technical degrees on the surrounding peaks existing in the park Deviating from the original plan and/or turning back may not seem so glorious but it just may save your butt one day I am thinking of carrying a long wave radio with me and getting the latest weather forecast for the region on my next trip In the Mountain/Human battle of determination the mountain ALWAYS!!!! Win And it is OK to Turn back …I find it a great quality of a climber - Humility After all we not suppose to be there in the first place All of this coming from someone who attempt the mountain couple of times and yet to reach the summit The Radio is with conjunction of assessing the immediate environment conditions it is just another tool to make sure that something that you don’t see/apparent will not pose a problem later Bad Luck are another words for misinformed or lack of collecting information Those were my thoughts and what I have learn from the string of accidents and it is not to say that I am not feeling for their families and offering my condolences So it is not heartless spry it is just lesson learned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 if you really want to avoid accidents the safest thing to do is to quit climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 if you really want to avoid accidents the safest thing to do is to quit climbing. And even then, you're only avoiding climbing accidents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glacier Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Move - most accidents occur at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted June 18, 2004 Author Share Posted June 18, 2004 That is true but then again you should not leave home or use electricity as well b/c that could kill you too... But I think you got my drift Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fear Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Luck is certainly part of the equation. If your don't think so then you're just fooling yourself.... Lot's of people seem to have the "I'm sooooo experienced and in control of all the variables...." In alpine climbing? BS...... Control everything you can but in the end you still roll the dice..... -Fear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 yes. you cannot control an avalanche, serac fall, rockfall, sudden storms etc. you can only be aware of such conditions developing and attempt to minimize your exposure to them. if this means going home then do it. the only problem is if conditions take a turn for the worse when you are already committed you are screwed. i was reading twight's exteeeem book and my room mate asked me what i thought of it. i said it was pretty inspiring and she said "I don't support it. I think someone's gonna get killed." of course she was a sport climber but you get the drift... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted June 18, 2004 Author Share Posted June 18, 2004 Luck is certainly part of the equation. If your don't think so then you're just fooling yourself.... Lot's of people seem to have the "I'm sooooo experienced and in control of all the variables...." In alpine climbing? BS...... Control everything you can but in the end you still roll the dice..... -Fear True about not knowing all the variable but it is not to say that you cant do research on the extensive information available I was under the assumption that climbing is a game of calculated risks where is your duties is to stack the odds to your favorer and having the right judgment call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Listen to your intuition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 yes. beckey is known for suddenly bailing in the middle of climbs during perfect weather - listening to his bad feelings and going down. sometimes he's wrong, and this has caused splits with partners over the years as when he wanted to bail and galen rowell refused to bail, went on and soloed the route they had been planning to do. but hey beckey is still alive at 82 so it seems like a viable strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Listen to your intuition. Newbies don't necessarily have this developed yet. In my own experience, my intuition to back off or whatever has been sharpened by my previous experiences. Despite that, I agree that some people are especially attuned to their gut instincts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CascadeClimber Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Some thoughts about non-technical skills, IMHO: Stay 'present': Be as aware as you can of your current situation and surroundings. Worry and fear are two common signs of lack of presence. Consider how close to your 'limit' you are, and evaluate the consequences of that relative to the severity of the route: There are times and places to push it, and times and places to be conservative. Be willing to pack and flee. Listen to that little voice in your head. It's wise. I've turned around on otherwise perfect days because of an overwhelming feeling of dread. Talk with and listen to your partner(s). Be aware of what's going on with them, and vice versa. Check, check, and check again. Knots, systems, crampons, rap setups, etc. If your partner doesn't like you double-checking him/her, consider shopping elsewhere. In short, make conscious choices, and this requires awareness. -L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Listen to that little voice in your head. It's wise. I've turned around on otherwise perfect days because of an overwhelming feeling of dread. on the other hand i have climbed through these feelings and ended up having a great climb and successful summit with no consequences. not all intuitions are to be trusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted June 18, 2004 Author Share Posted June 18, 2004 Listen to your intuition. I wonder what make a person not listening to their intuition and still push on? Is “rolling the dice” starting from this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashw_justin Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 (edited) As you can already see, this website is not a good place to ask people how to climb safely. (edit: okay, some good posts have popped up while I was madly typing away...) You just get a bunch of young a-holes (myself maybe included) spraying BS because either they don't know and they don't want to admit it, or they do know but it can't be explained. You don't just push on like a dumbass maggot on pile of feces. That's a dumb way to climb. I think you just have to think about what you have control over, and how to maintain control over whatever that happens to be--because whatever those things are, they're the only things that you will be able to use to save yourself. A lot of times this turns out to be very little, because obviously we can't control the mountains. But that's okay because it's better to eliminate irrelevant worries while climbing, i.e. those things that scare us, but over which we have no control. So take SuperSavageBadassLethal Ridge. Once you decide that you are going to give it a shot, and find yourself on the route, climbing by whatever mode you deemed necessary, all you can really do is keep going until something convinces you otherwise. But you have to have enough awareness and experience to know when danger has been elevated to an unnacceptable level, and the judgement to alter your plans if necessary. Personally I doubt that it's even possible to always know exactly when to pull the plug. Sometimes it's even safer just to push on. But I think what's most important is that you are intelligent and aware enough to know when it's time to make a really important decision, that actually matters. What I mean by "matters" is that the choices are based on something you control, that depends on you and not on some uncontrollable aspect of the mountain. For example, you can't decide "the mountain is safe now." That's really not up to you. The only thing you can decide is whether or not you are going to climb it, and how, and under what circumstances you find it necessary to start trying to save your ass. And you won't know the answers to these questions until you get a lot of relevant experience. We can all use more of that. Of course to get this experience you have to climb. Until you feel that you can trust your own judgement, you'll just have to go out and be cautious, pay attention, and think about what you are doing and the possible consequences of your decisions. But don't overthink it to the point of paralyzing yourself. If something bothers you then figure out why and decide whether or not there is something you can do about it. And of course, learn from others, and their successes and failures. Then finally, when you've been climbing "forever," don't let this cloud and diminish your awareness. I don't want to start trying to analyze recent accidents but something like an avalanche or 100mph winds will take away all of your control and take all of the decisions out of your hands. Once you're at that point it's too late to climb safely. Either you made a bad choice during a critical decision that got you to that point, or it really is just bad luck. Sometimes that distinction depends on the climber, sometimes not. IMO the important thing is to know when it does. So as far as 'just going for it' in the face of risk, this is stupid if it's based solely on one's nutsack. For me, if I can convince myself that there is a safe way to keep going then I will. My definition of "safe" may be different from others', we all have our own levels of acceptable risk. But I can safely say that I don't have a great amount of experience, and because of that I tend to bail when I feel that I may be missing something. Edited June 18, 2004 by ashw_justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CascadeClimber Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 on the other hand i have climbed through these feelings and ended up having a great climb and successful summit with no consequences. not all intuitions are to be trusted. Agreed: There is a fine line between listening and considering, and being overrun. When I choose continue, I factor in my intuition, along with avy conditions, weather, etc. -L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 As you can already see, this website is not a good place to ask people how to climb safely. (edit: okay, some good posts have popped up while I was madly typing away...) You just get a bunch of young a-holes (myself maybe included) spraying BS because either they don't know and they don't want to admit it, or they do know but it can't be explained. You don't just push on like a dumbass maggot on pile of feces. That's a dumb way to climb. I think you just have to think about what you have control over, and how to maintain control over whatever that happens to be--because whatever those things are, they're the only things that you will be able to use to save yourself. A lot of times this turns out to be very little, because obviously we can't control the mountains. But that's okay because it's better to eliminate irrelevant worries while climbing, i.e. those things that scare us, but over which we have no control. So take SuperSavageBadassLethal Ridge. Once you decide that you are going to give it a shot, and find yourself on the route, climbing by whatever mode you deemed necessary, all you can really do is keep going until something convinces you otherwise. But you have to have enough awareness and experience to know when danger has been elevated to an unnacceptable level, and the judgement to alter your plans if necessary. Personally I doubt that it's even possible to always know exactly when to pull the plug. Sometimes it's even safer just to push on. But I think what's most important is that you are intelligent and aware enough to know when it's time to make a really important decision, that actually matters. What I mean by "matters" is that the choices are based on something you control, that depends on you and not on some uncontrollable aspect of the mountain. For example, you can't decide "the mountain is safe now." That's really not up to you. The only thing you can decide is whether or not you are going to climb it, and how, and under what circumstances you find it necessary to start trying to save your ass. And you won't know the answers to these questions until you get a lot of relevant experience. We can all use more of that. Of course to get this experience you have to climb. Until you feel that you can trust your own judgement, you'll just have to go out and be cautious, pay attention, and think about what you are doing and the possible consequences of your decisions. But don't overthink it to the point of paralyzing yourself. If something bothers you then figure out why and decide whether or not there is something you can do about it. And of course, learn from others, and their successes and failures. Then finally, when you've been climbing "forever," don't let this cloud and diminish your awareness. I don't want to start trying to analyze recent accidents but something like an avalanche or 100mph winds will take away all of your control and take all of the decisions out of your hands. Once you're at that point it's too late to climb safely. Either you made a bad choice during a critical decision that got you to that point, or it really is just bad luck. Sometimes that distinction depends on the climber, sometimes not. IMO the important thing is to know when it does. So as far as 'just going for it' in the face of risk, this is stupid if it's based solely on one's nutsack. For me, if I can convince myself that there is a safe way to keep going then I will. My definition of "safe" may be different from others', we all have our own levels of acceptable risk. But I can safely say that I don't have a great amount of experience, and because of that I tend to bail when I feel that I may be missing something. ...and never ever downclimb on an onsite...whoops, wrong thread... just trying to insert some humor...prolly not the place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashw_justin Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Sport Climbing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 or crack climbing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Sport Climbing... Now you're gonna get a PM from RuMR telling you that HE HASN'T CLIPPED A BOLT IN THE PAST FIVE WEEKENDS, DAMMIT!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 maybe this weekend though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted June 18, 2004 Author Share Posted June 18, 2004 and think about what you are doing and the possible consequences of your decisions. But don't overthink it to the point of paralyzing yourself. That is the greatest advice It forces one to know their own, environment and team limits and hopefully make the right honest decision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Some thoughts about non-technical skills, IMHO: [*]Stay 'present': Be as aware as you can of your current situation and surroundings. Worry and fear are two common signs of lack of presence. Consider how close to your 'limit' you are, and evaluate the consequences of that relative to the severity of the route: There are times and places to push it, and times and places to be conservative. -L This is a really important point. The only time that I have been dangerously close to an avalanche was this winter. I was snowshoeing on the approach to the North Face of Abeil and I had tweaked my hip flexor. The pain was so bad that I couldn't lift my leg without grabbing my pants and pulling up. It was all I could focus on. My partner said that he was nervous about the avy danger, but I just ignored it. I was just focusing on the next step. Five minutes later I triggered an 18 inch deep 75 foot lond slab. It didn't catch us, but it could have. If I had been there mentally I never would have ignored the concerns of my partner. Mental focus is absolutely critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 "When you journey to the edge of human experience, you don't know what keeps you alive. So, as a corollary, you can't rule anything out." ~ M. Bane (Really) Risky Business: An excellent article on extreme risk assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Listen to that little voice in your head. It's wise. I've turned around on otherwise perfect days because of an overwhelming feeling of dread. Huh, I think I recall turning around on an otherwise perfect day because of an overwhelming desire for pancakes. Wise little voice in stomach Seriously though, that was a good list up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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