Oh, ya thanks....

[Dane]

"DISHMAN:

Almost all the routes at Dishman have been retrobolted at this point thanks to the efforts of Grady Roberts, Eric Lawson, and Sean Smith. Now you'll only need a hand full of quickdraws for an after work session at Dishman. Thanks you guys."

 

If you are the guys who bolted Klingon and added bolts to the other lines...ya thanks a lot...big improvement.

[MCash]

Yeah, I wouldn't call the chipped holds on a certain route or that fucking gym hold bolted to the wall at the blank section to be an improvement either. What the fuck? Several lines where bolts were placed where there is good natural protection need a chopping. I'll help.

[pindude]

Gym hold? Chipped holds? WTF is going on out there? Bolts are never acceptable near a protectable crack. I haven't been been out to DH wall since last year, but if the rock is indeed being brought down to certain person's levels, then action should be taken.

[NYC007]

yeah, there is a plastic hold bolted to a climb. thats besides the rock bolted to far right side of the wall..

[pindude]

That rock bolted in has been there since the 80s, I believe, and protects that flake from popping off. Unsightly, but I'm more accepting of that than some effing unreal plastic gym hold bolted to that granite face. Who's responsible for that?

[willstrickland]

[NYC007]

Pindude,

Not that one, there is and actual rock, from the ground put up there. but bolting gear routes???why?? alot of people arent liking that. Good Idea Will.. Bars work the best from what I was told..

[pindude]

I'll be taking a look at DH wall soon, thanks.

[Marty]

Prying all the bolts off the faces at Dishman is a great idea. They completely detract from the graffitti and garbage at the base, and the giant, concrete, water tower at the top. It also sucks now cause I just show up after work with a handful of draws and climb. I miss those days of hiking to the top, and finding that special tree or rock to drape 30 ft of webbing over the edge for my toprope set up.

What? You ask why I was toproping and not leading up the oh soo difficult 5.11 routes?

That's because some great strongman from the past had top roped the piss out of the route that I was trying, then put a bolt or two where they thought that they might fall, and then free climbed the route, leaving the rest of us with loads of sketchy entry level routes(by the way what were you guys thinking with those substandard 1 inch long bolts you used back then? You could kill someone you know. Or is that your purpose in climbing?).

Oh and 5.11 was hard for me about 10 years ago when I started climbing. These days I'll bet I could scare the shit out of you ego tyrants of the past if I chose to bolt routes like you did.

You guys should get over it. There isn't even 5.13 at Dishman (Did you know there might be 5.15b routes out there now?). Its a begginers crag and good place to learn to lead(Minnehaha should get fixed as well). The cracks are still there so you can put all the gear you want in them (arent there really only 4 gear climbs at Dishman anyhow?)and then clip the chains at the top and come down to do another route.

And Pindude, if you're who I think you are, rather than heading out to Dishman to chop bolts you should head out and start trying to lead all the routes clean cause I belive your fitness level would only get you up a couple of the lines out there anyhow. A little more climbing and a little less chopping and you might find Eye Of the Tiger isn't out of your reach at this point.

I didn't bolt the rock on the wall either and it is ugly. However, I found myself pulling on it when I climbed the route.

 

More climbing less chopping.

[Marty]

Oh yeah and I forgot. I've done all the routes anyway so chop away. Since you all have such big brassy balls and are such alpine legends and don't need bolt hangers please send all chopped hardware to: Marty Bland

12 W. Sprague

Spokane, WA. 99201

[southernmtguide]

Wow, I did not realize I lived in such a happening burg. After living through bolt wars back East,stalking Ken Nichols, watching the great glue ups go in at Smith Rock I though I had seen it all.I know have to venture over to Dishman and check out all these fine routes before they get chopped by zealots. Anyone that is going to chop, please post your schechdule here first, so I can try to get a lap in before the route is offed.

[NYC007]

so I guess its ok to drill unnatural pockets and put plastic holds on rock?

[NYC007]

Well if whoever bolted the trad lines got the permission from the person who put it up, then oh well. its just a common courtesy to ask..

[pindude]

Marty, you know who I am. It’s Steve Reynolds, not Ken Nichols. I’m not anti-bolt, as you make me out to be. And I’m certainly not one with an ego problem.

 

Your posts are ridiculous. What the hell are you going on about? The issues are simply the following.

Not to be tolerated are:

1. Chipped holds

2. Bolted-on holds

3. Bolts next to protectable cracks

 

If you’ve got any problems with that, then we really need to talk. PM me, and I’ll give you my phone number.

[MCash]

Give me a break Marty. The trad routes that were bolted need to be chopped. We're not talking about chopping the sport routes that had additional bolts added to them. Those should definately stay, and make leading the routes safe. That gym hold needs to be pryed off. If we loose a route because of it, so be it. We're talking about ethics not astetics here. Whether or not there is a concrete water tower up there is irrelevant. If you are going to be pissed because you can't lead Dishman's trad routes with a set of quickdraws after work, than so be it. A set of nuts and a couple cams on Ebay are cheap.

 

Oh, and slamming people's climbing level who climb ice, snow, big mountains, boulders, sport, trad, and lots of backcountry skiing like pindude is lame. Not everyone's #1 life goal is to clip 5.15b bolts.

[klenke]

My #1 goal in life is to stick-clip 5.2 bolts.

[MCash]

Its a begginers crag and good place to learn to lead(Minnehaha should get fixed as well). The cracks are still there so you can put all the gear you want in them.

 

Go ahead and try to bolt the trad lines at Minne. They will be chopped within 24 hours. If not by the "old guard", I will do it personally. Somebody already tried to bolt the Dihedral several years ago, a route with protection every 4 feet. Look how long those bolts lasted.

[LUCKY]

Marty I tried that email address and it didn't work, I want a copy of your guide book so send me an email with an address and how much to rockandsteel@hotmail.com

BTW don't let these wankers get to you.

LUCKY

Edited June 22, 2004 by LUCKY

[Dane]

I've done all the routes anyway so chop away.

 

Nice Marty....

Fact is you didn't do most the routes, someone else did.

That you have now done them means nothing. Leaving them as the first ascent parties did does mean something.

What you think needs a few extra bolts might just be the solos for tomorrow's beginners. Chew on that awhile, since it is in fact true.

 

There is no reason to retro bolt beyond safety. Over-inflated egos aren't a valid reason, no matter how much you pontificate.

 

There will always be guys that will come after you that will look at your efforts as a simpleton's walk up. But the fact is you started climbing on someone else's routes if that fact has escaped you. So did I.

 

Clue in dude. You weren't the first generation with a bolt gun.

 

Lot of insults being spewed about on top roping and then leading. I'd be real careful with that sort of implication when your forte is hard bolted sport climbs.

 

Someone might really take offense and start chopping your old routes, new routes and projects. Wouldn't that be disappointing?

 

Just to be clear I don't think chopping bolts is the answer. Makes the climbing experience less IMO. But it does indeed need to be talked about.

 

FWIW I chopped the achor bolts mid way up the wall on, "Hair of the Dog", not the route 20 years ago.

 

But I think retro bolting and support for it should be condemned in the community.

 

Instead of placing a bolt every 2 feet at Dishman how about adding good TR anchors and cleaning the place up. That would be a better service to the climbing community.

 

Sorry, I forgot all you want to do is go clip a few "beginner" bolts after work so you can stay toned for your .14c projects.

 

How is it a obviously good climber, missed the real basics Marty?

 

Well if whoever bolted the trad lines got the permission from the person who put it up, then oh well. its just a common courtesy to ask..

 

No one got permission at Dishman. No one asked.

 

As an aside, bars are not the best for popping bolts. Best way is to shear them off flush with the rock. Easy enough to do. With the answers I have seen here I might be willing to give a few demos in the Spokane area and post my schedule.

Edited June 22, 2004 by Dane

[Marty]

#1 most important thing to remember..... I didn't retrobolt the routes at Dishman. At one time I did add bolts to Touch of Grey and Firestone but they were flattend and torn out long before the crag was bolted the way it is now.

 

#2 Dane I have no beef with you. If you put the route up you can do whatever you like of course. I do have a beef with the guys who probably have never been to the crag, jumpin in on the bolt choppin wagon. Bunch of retards. They could care less about the climbs they just want to be a part of something.

 

#3 You are exactly right about the Simpletons walk up. My hardest route today will be a warm up for some in 10 yrs. if it isn't already. I didn't mean to demean your ascents and in fact I realize how difficult and scary some of them were. I respect that. Most people don't. The only problem is that 20 yrs from now, nobody will recognize you or I for any particular climbing achievment or route that we put up.

 

#4 As far as asking, I didn't even know you were in the country till you posted on this site this spring. Last thing I heard about you was about 10 yrs back when Keith Wallace said he had climbed with you. Sorry, but again I didnt retro your routes and Im sure there was no ill intent, its just that nobody sees you around the crags anymore.

 

#5 When would be a good time to replace all the old 1 inch bolts that are in Dishman and Minne? Should they ever be maintained at all? Should my generation and the future have to ask to replace an old crappy bolt? I don't know.

As far as my routes are concerned I would like to give the green light right now. Add a bolt if you feel you need to.

 

#6 Essentially the north end of Dishman has chipped holds on the routes. There are places that the rock has a few more features than the glass on your screen but not much more. I am guilty of putting holds on my route in that area. Anyone is welcome to fill in the holes provided that they can climb the route without them. You would impress me to no end, but otherwise forget about destroying my route and the others. They are good rockclimbs and add great challenges to the Dishman Crag.

As for the rock that is bolted on the wall, it used to be a bright red tat (piece of webbing) that everybody pulled past the blank section on. Bright red tat? River rock? Both look bad but thats how the first ascent was done. Maybe that should be respected? Or should we get another piece of webbing or drill a pocket? Maybe we should just sit home.

 

#7 As far as being overbolted I have a challenge for Steve and Dane. Us three go out climbing at Dishman. Steve, you and Dane start leading routes. Any bolts that you clip during a succesful "redpoint" stay in the wall. If you don't "redpoint" the route then the bolts stay. The ones that you don't clip we chop out but I get the hangers of course. Also, any route I free solo, the bolts stay in. This way I couldn't accuse Dane of working the piss out of the route before poorly protecting the first ascent. (Dane, I don't know if you practised this style of FA in the past. It seems to be an anomoly of the era and really sucks for people who try it later). Steve would feel justified in the bolts that he was chopping, and I could get some free hangers. Everybody's happy.

 

#8 MCash, when have I advocated bolting any trad lines? Where is that in here? Hello!!! Did I mention that I never retroed any of the routes at Dishman?

 

#9 I didn't retrobolt any routes I only put in a few new ones. I didn't bolt that stupid rock on the wall either. I liked the red tat better. It felt more traditional to me. Dane, I have no beef with you and respect you, Larry, and the others that were pushing it at the time. You guys were out there doing it and I appreciate what you did. Thanks.

 

#11 Klenke, one man's 5.2 is another man's 15b. Keep up the good fight

 

#13 Crowbars, hammers, whats up? Have you all heard of a wrench? And if you must chop please send all bolt hangers to the address that I posted above. Thanks

 

 

 

Dane, Who chopped the 3 bolts that were on the route, Hair of the Dog and why? They seem to have been in odd placements that would have made it hard to clip.

 

More climbing, less chopping

[NYC007]

I think we all need a

[LUCKY]

Marty your post was well thought out and MANS way of stating reality

I look forward to running into you at the crag

LUCKY

[fenderfour]

Let me get this up front - I have never set a route. I probably never will. This post isn't directed at anyone specifically.

 

IMHO, if there is no hold to climb on, there is no route. You don't chip a hold, you don't bolt a rock on. Routes on rock are found, not made.

 

If you want to chip/glue build a home wall.

 

If the old bolts are scary and just plain dangerous, then replacing the old bolts is ok. Adding a bunch of bolts is not.

 

Some rock is unclimable. Deal with it. Just because it is nearby doesn't mean that it HAS to be developed.

 

One more thing - I've never been to Dishman. This is just the basic ethics of rock climbing that was taught to me by a group of people who have an amazing amount of experience.

[Dane]

Problem with putting things in writing is, well, you get called on them from time to time.

 

Putting in bolts on obvious trad routes like Klingon @ Dishman is BS. We all know that or should know that. When an over the hill codger like me has to point that out to kids lacking a little moral fortitude and a set of balls, to be honest about it, it is pretty weak.

 

Marty the vast majority of routes I put in were done on lead, on sight. Simply because you can't top rope most of them even if you wanted to. I have placed 6 total bolts in my life. All of them on short routes I did first on TR because there was no natuaral pro. 4 of those bolts some idiot pulled so the route would stay a TR or you could pretty much solo it like I did on the FA. I never spend hours, let alone days, doing anything on a rock route less than 1000 feet high. I did take some good wingers with that attitude.

 

Certainly not the way eveything needs to be done. Hard to find a new unclimbed crack these days.

 

Never felt like I climbed 5.12 either and figured if I had to work harder, I didn't really want to do it.

 

So why the trip down memory lane?

 

Lot of very hard routes being done. Lot of over use of the Bosch on routes that were done 20 years ago. Guys like you, Marty should be saying.."NO more retro bolts", not, "cool, more bolts!"

 

I admire hard climbs. When I started climbing 5.9 was hard.

I thought .12s were hard when I was trying them. The stuff you guys are doing is incredible. But it is a bad example and a loss to the climbing community to place bolts on climbs that others will obviously be doing sooner or latter when you can't. Worse yet to add a bolt to a climb you don't want to do without a bolt and has been done many, many times before you. That gets my hackles up even today.

 

I don't have a problem with Marty or any of the guys who retro bolted Dishman. I do have a problem with their actions.

 

Marty and others have made judgements that the climbs at Dishman were top roped to death before being bolted. That may or may not be the case. Fact is it is not. Peterman was climbing very hard to do those routes. And none of the guys mentioned were around when they were being done...I was.

 

You have to be a egostictical SOB to assume that you have the right to retro bolt another man's art work. Dishman holds some of Larry's masterpieces. Sadly you guys owe him an apology. I'll let you know what is owed on Klingon when I get done cleaning it up. Worse yet you can't solve the problem of defacing the rock or what the next generation of climbers will have to look at from your mess.

 

I am guilty of putting holds on my route in that area. Anyone is welcome to fill in the holes provided that they can climb the route without them. You would impress me to no end, but otherwise forget about destroying my route and the others. They are good rockclimbs and add great challenges to the Dishman Crag.

 

OK, Marty this is just plain BS. While I do respect your obvious climbing ability this is really stupid. Guys like Larry, Jim Purty, Curt Shannon, Glen Cameron, Bob Loomis, Kim Momb, Gwain Oka, Chuck Hartshorn, Darcy Droste, Pat Mahoney and a host of others could have done all sorts of stuff at Dishman if we had wanted to chop holds on the north end 20 years ago since you missed that fact. I encouraged Keith Wallace to work on the middle and longest line in the early '90s and thought it could be done then...TR'ed Keith on it in fact. Doesn't matter that our holds would have been larger or not...they are still chopped holds. If you think UNI was 5.12 then I would have to even question that thought.

 

The artificial holds need to come off the wall. The chopped holds need to be filled. The retro bolting needs to be stopped and the extra bolts need to go. Simple as that.

 

What really pisses me off about all of this is you guys trashing a great rock climbing resourse. The garbage can easily be cleaned up and the area made into the park it once was. The rock resource can't be renewed...too bad you didn't learn that while learning how to climb on the stuff we put up 20 years ago. It is a damn shame.

 

This shouldn't be Dane and Marty bashing heads here. What it should be is all of us that value climbing and the finite resource, protecting it. I'm going to call Steve Reynolds in the next few minutes and hopefully arrange a few days off to work at Dishman. Everyone is welcome to join us and maybe put these kinds of issues to rest.

 

Marty as an aside it would be nice if you would read your own thread and answer the questions I asked.

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/341046/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

Edited June 22, 2004 by Dane

[Marty]

For anyone who is reading this and need context, I will explain the Dishman crag as I see it.

It's a 400-500 yd long, slightly overhanging (on the average)granite wall. There are 3 cracksthat run top to bottom and the rest is face climibng. There are about 30 routes. The rock is really good, and on the north end it is too good so as to be blank as it is in other spots on the south end. The crag avg's about 60ft tall. 5 minutes from downtown spokane you drive east, to the valley, and behind the mega car lot of Appleway Toyota/chev/whatever other brand or just take a right when you see the De Ja Vu on Sprague, then drive up towards the giant concrete water tower. You'll have to park at the illegal dump and be nice to the vagrants on the one minute approach in. Be careful of the wet graffitti paint at the base of the crag but do look for the Rock 106 graffitti because above it is a very great climb and a classic in Spokane (If someone defaces this Rock 106 graffitti, it is 1000 times worse than chopping bolts) This is hardly an alpine environment like some wish it to be but it is a very cool crag and one that I would reccomend to any visitor. It is the best granite crag in Spokane (I would only recommend Minnehaha to an enemy).

 

 

# Dane, you haven't climbed the routes since they have been rebolted. I think you should reclimb them on lead now and see how many bolts you end up clipping before you call them "overbolted". You or I might be surprised. You might or might not be as immortal as you used to.

 

#2 Who owns the rock? I don't, Dane doesn't, Larry doesn't, and now way Steve does cause he seems to just have found out that the place was retrobolted. That happened about 3 years ago and that stupid bolt on rock has been there for at least a year (dont forget it was a red tat before that for 2-4 yrs). Steve your lack of concern/attendence is pathetic.

Back to the issue of rock ownership. Just because Joe Blow did some route 20 yrs ago in some style really means nothing because the future dictates what will happen in the future. The future owns the rock. Spokane climbers of 2000 decided that they would rather clip bolts up to a set of chains than do it in your old style. It may have been done out of fear of the routes or it may have been done just so they were a bit more convienient to climb. I dont know but you can ask them. 40 yrs from now they will do the same or possibly even return to your style and ignore most of the bolts or chop them. Maybe the car lot in front of Dishman buys the land and shows cars in front of the wall? Who knows but it wont be up to Dane or I to decide, so today's actions are somewhat inconsequential because none of us own the wall. bottom line: Art on the canvas of another.

 

# I agree with the way Dishman is now. You can go there and go climbing. Its fun. You don't have to break your ankle or die at some crag in the middle of industrial Spokane. That is for the mountains. Chimney rock/Selkirks will never get bolted cause its too far to hike tools in and its glacially polished so the face hold don't exist either. Go there and get scared and feel like Dane/Larry/Steve does/used to. See what its like to get 30ft off a crappy tcu. But at Dishman if you are 30ft off a tcu then your probably at the top near the water tower. Hopefully the crag vandals will have left you a set of anchors to get off and clean your route on.

 

# A rant from me: When I showed up at Dishman in the early 90's and still thought that my rope would only hold 7 falls, (like it said on the packaging) the 5.9 was run way out but the 12a (the hardest route there and the time) was bolted as a sport route? Logically, the bolt spacing should have been similar to the 5.9, or more run out, possibly a solo, but it wasn't close to the same. It was the opposite because these guys were begginers at the 5.12 level. They should have shown the same respect that they showed themselves, as begginers, and protected the 5.9's, 5.11's like the 5.12.

Why is it that all the begginer routes are runout and scary and the hard routes are bolted real well (There's pro on Slave Labor and I think I might do it all on natural gear and chop all the bolts. Then only someone as great as me will be able to attempt the route. Won't I be a hero? They'll write books about me and I'll get a Nike contract, etc, etc.). This is stupid and the trend should be reversed. The class of 2000 did just that.

 

# Dane, you climbed for adventure and to test your nerve. I respect that. You should respect those who just want to go climb for fun. Why are you or your purposes greater than them? None of those routes have been degraded. You can still plug gear and run them out at your leisure. Leave those people alone.

 

# Dane, I'll bet that if you were my dad when automobiles first came out in the early 1900's, you would probably buy a car. Except one day I would want a ride to the candy store but you would make me ride the old mare. I would ask why? You would tell me "cause its more gallant, asthetic, a little dangerous, and thats the way I used to have to do it. Uphill both ways in 500degree temperatures"

 

More climbing less chopping

since its 95degress today

More swimming less chopping