catbirdseat Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 The recent Frenchman's Coulee accident report got me thinking. Maybe I do too much of that, but I can't help it. Supposing you were careless in setting up a single rope rappel, and the ends were not even so that they both did not reach the ground. You did happen to tie knots in the ends, though. You rappel and don't notice the end coming up and one of the knots hits your device (if the device is a figure eight, you die- if an ATC you live). So now you are hanging there wondering what to do. You could prusik back up the rope, which would take quite a bit of time if you were almost all of the way down. What I would probably do is the following. I'd put a couple prusiks on the rope and climb up about three feet. I'd then untie the knot in the end and remove that strand only from my ATC. I would then tie it into my harness. I would transfer the weight to the single strand still going through my ATC, then remove the prusiks and continue rappelling in a "counterweight" rappel. Here are the caveats. The rope must be able to slip through the anchor up top. It must be either through chains or a rap ring, biner, etc and not just through slings. Does this idea make any sense? If the rope was directly through the slings, then you'd have to either prusik up or tie the end to a figure eight loop on the single strand you are rapping on. Your partner up top would then have to pull the rope up and remove the knots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 that makes a lot of sense actually. I tend to do a counterbalance rap when setting up TRs. Just makes me feel safer being in control than if my partner 'has' me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 iceguy's plan, while not bombproof, sounds like the best option as it has fewer shenanigans involved versus catbirdseat's. Keep It Simple Stupid. The fewer operations necessary is most often times the safest (except for forgetting the rope altogether and jumping). I get extra points for using 'shenanigans' on a friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 (edited) It is not a difficult matter to slip one rope past the other in the middle of a rappel. I often do this near the start of the rappel to get the knot over an edge or through a bush or something. As to the possibility that I need to readjust the ropes lower down on the rap, I usually look down to see where the ends are before I get anywhere near the end of my rope. I cannot think of a single instance in over thirty years of climbing where I've been surprised to find the knot bumping up against my rappel device. When I notice that the ends are uneven such that one may not reach the intended landing spot, I generally look for a ledge or some place where I can unweight the rope and even them out by slipping one up through my device and the other down. I know, this exposes me to the possibility of a placing a sudden jerk on my rappel anchor and on my device -- and somebody's going to want to calculate the fall factors and whatnot -- but that's just how I usually handle the situation. If it is a hanging rappel, you could let one knot bump up against your device and thus force the other end to slip past it and even things out, but I generally try to straighten these things out BEFORE I have the knot up against my rappel device. If it is at all questionnable, don't most of us even up the ends and pull to the middle of the rope BEFORE we even throw it down in the first place? Edited April 30, 2004 by mattp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 I agree with iceguy. If the knot stopped you once, it should continue to hold as you descend. Of course, if you rapped from just a sling, you would have to do the figure eight loop thing. And I suppose if you were only 10 feet short of the ground you could just lower on the sling anyway. If it breaks the sling, its only 10 ft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 the idea of a jammed up atc keeping me off the deck is not particularly appealing. I'd probably still back it up w/ a prusik. I love hypothetical situations discussed to death on climbing boards. so, let's say it's raining, and you had two bananas for breakfast, and the gravitational flux is such that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 Why does my avatar image keep changing by itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Why does my avatar image keep changing by itself? The same reason I am always listed as in "the laundry room." A moderator is fucking with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 Okay, Iain, let's play the "What If?" game. What would you do if, you rapped down, your rope ends were uneven, you didn't tie knots and one end went zigging through your device. You are holding yourself by pinching the ropes with you guide hand and your brake hand still has hold of the one strand through your device. What would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Okay, Iain, let's play the "What If?" game. What would you do if, you rapped down, your rope ends were uneven, you didn't tie knots and one end went zigging through your device. You are holding yourself by pinching the ropes with you guide hand and your brake hand still has hold of the one strand through your device. What would you do? ASk myself "what would Stallone have done in Cliffhanger?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 I would have cratered already because there's no reason to hold the ropes above the rappel device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 I prefer Greg's answer. It allows for more plot development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 okay, I would lunge with my brake hand and do a few quick adrenaline-laced yards up the rope, spiral the rope around my leg to get some weight off, and try to get a hitch around the lines. some whimpering would be involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 And I suppose if you were only 10 feet short of the ground you could just lower on the sling anyway. If it breaks the sling, its only 10 ft. It'll break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 I prefer Greg's answer. It allows for more plot development. In "Cliffhanger 2", I think Stallone carries the latest bolt gun with "insta-daisy-chain" attachment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 okay, I would lunge with my brake hand and do a few quick adrenaline-laced yards up the rope, spiral the rope around my leg to get some weight off, and try to get a hitch around the lines. some whimpering would be involved. There was a story in the Burgess brother's book about this guy they used to climb with who took a leader fall and got so sketched he panicked and hand over handed up the free hanging rope and back onto the rock. All they could do is shake their heads and say, "damn!". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 I like Iain's answer. I guess that would be the only possibility. Once I got up a couple of feet I'd probably be wrapping the short end (if I could figure out which one was the short end in that desperate situation) around my arm. Obviously a leg wrap would be better but you wouldn't need to climb as far up to get the arm wrap. OUch that would hurt, and you'd probably end up dying anyway. So here's a little thing to think about. Noone probably ever does this, but just in case you're wondering why... A while back a partner of mine was using a D biner for his rappel biner. Because of the asymetric notch, it was pulling on one rope way more than the other and causing it to run through the rap anchor at an alarming rate. Lucky for him/us a) we weren't rapping from a sling, and b) that I was at the anchor and able to grab the knot to stop the rope from running. Oh, and as for CBS's intial query. I'd just prussik up the damn ropes until I got to a no-hands rest, or a place I could anchor. If it meant prussiking to the top, so be it. Better than dinking around with an unpracticed method of self-rescue right near the end of the damn rope Prussiking just isn't that difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 i wouldnt have got into that fucked up situation in the first place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 Naturally, but this is the What If game. The more extreme the predicament, the more compelling it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 OK, how about this one? You've been climbing at Index (upper wall) all day and it's really freakin' hot, and your water ran out about 6 pitches ago and you're drier than a [insert your amusingly exagerated stereotype of a negatively aroused housewife here], and you get back to the bitchin 4WD truck, and all you've got is 4 ice-cold beers? Unfortunately, you've used blue ice as a coolant, so there is no ice-melt water. Only beer, refreshing beer..... what do you do? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 blah blah blah Supposing you were careless in setting up a single rope rappel, and the ends were not even so that they both did not reach the ground. You did happen to tie knots in the ends, though. You rappel and don't notice the end coming up and one of the knots hits your device (if the device is a figure eight, you die- if an ATC you live). So now you are hanging there wondering what to do. blah blah blah i would tie off and rub out a last one before jumping into the void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Naturally, but this is the What If game. The more extreme the predicament, the more compelling it is. the more extreme the predicament the more i laugh at dumb asses who actually would think it's probable they would find themselves in such a situation. you are talking about single rope rappels. you aren't going to come up short on one side if you have a rope with a middle marker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 I'm still wondering how ya get to be the "king of spray"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 Naturally, but this is the What If game. The more extreme the predicament, the more compelling it is. the more extreme the predicament the more i laugh at dumb asses who actually would think it's probable they would find themselves in such a situation. Come on Dru, no one used the word "probable". You did. My little brother and I used to play the What If game and all the scenarios were highly improbable if not impossible, but that didn't stop us from having our fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Naturally, but this is the What If game. The more extreme the predicament, the more compelling it is. the more extreme the predicament the more i laugh at dumb asses who actually would think it's probable they would find themselves in such a situation. Come on Dru, no one used the word "probable". You did. My little brother and I used to play the What If game and all the scenarios were highly improbable if not impossible, but that didn't stop us from having our fun. So, go mentally masturbate with your family members then. Better yet, keep it up, it's good for a laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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