JayB Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 Pope/Dwayner: Dudes...I was just trying to say that extremists tend to undermine the causes they hope to advance by alienating most of the people who might support them. Judging by your comments it seems clear that both of you take pride in the fact that you've always given climbing gyms and sport crags a wide berth. Fair enough, but in doing so I think that you've developed an inaccurate picture of the people who frequent them. Most sport-climbers/gym-climbers that I know do care quite a bit about the environment and, by extension, the rocks themselves. If you appeal to these sentiments when and if you ever have direct contact with them, I think that you'll find that they'll be willing to listen and might even be converts to your cause. Oddly enough, that's more of less what I saw going on in the gym in Colorado Springs. Quite a few of the active old-schoolers would keep their muscles strong in the gym during the winter months, and while there interacted with most of the gym-climbers and sport monkeys. When the weather warmed up a crew of them would usually head out to the Platte to climb together, and after a trip or two with the old schoolers they seemed to be on the same page with regards to ethics. I'm certainly not suggesting that you take a flock of gym-climbing sport-monkeys under your wing or hold sermons in the gym, but rather that your cause might be better served by changing your tactics/message a bit. [ 06-18-2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: JayB ] Quote
richard_noggin Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 Take all the rock in Leavenworth and jackhammer and pry all the loose rock off, preasure wash it, Grid bolt it, and and anything too hard for me to climb please chip, glue, or bolt holds to it. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 Jay of course you are correct, but simply put they enjoy the rant more than the cause. Dwayner has gone back and edited his comments. On eof the things he edited out was a claim to haviung success turning a couple of climbers away from the dark side. Now assume that there are thousands of climbers in Wa. Now look in the guidebooks and see the relatively small number of people actually placing bolts. How many expected bolters has he really prevented? 1/5000? 1/10,000. Who know maybe he stopped someone just as their finger was compressing the drill trigger. Now let's go back to the small number of drillers? Clearly by turning one of these he would prevent much "damage." Yet do they reach out to the drillers? The answer to that is obviously no. They choose instead to minimize their effectiveness for the joys of spewing forth on the internet. Quote
richard_noggin Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: the joys of spewing forth on the internet.[/QB] Oh yes spewing is much more fun than the same old dead topic and never ending looong posts that follow. I notice the ones that spew endlessly about that nasty bolt some where on an unseen crag are the same ones that don't give back to climbing, they just take from it and spray bout ethics. I don't see them at cleanups, trail projects or belonging to access groups. I personaly see them as the biggest threat to our access Larry the tool is loveing this shit Quote
Peter_Puget Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 Actually good point since Dwayner ridiculed the Index cleanup. Saying somehting to the effect that one man and a trash bag was all that was needed. Seems he doesn't get very far off the beaten track. The amount of trash thrown of the Upper Wall is unbelievable. Those who took the time to clean up trash, trim/repair trail are busy building good relationships with land managers. Those that bitch just show their ignorance or their spweing nature. Kudos to all that particpated in the clean-up. Quote
erik Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 PETE ONE THING ON THE PICKUP AT INDEX, I WAS THERE FOR A LITTLE WHILE AND DID NOT SEE "BLIGHT" THERE. AND HE SEEMED THE TO BE THE ANTAGONIST ON THAT SUBJECT. ACTULLY I SAW BLIGHT ABOUT 3 HOURS LATER HIKING DOWN THE SNOW CREEK TRAIL, WHILE I WAS HIKING UP. HOW WAS I ABLE TO PICK UP TRASH AT INDEX AND CLIMB IN LWORTH THAT DAY??? SO SHIT TALKERS CAN SHUT UP!!! Quote
erik Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 and harmon, can i ask you a question?? you seem to rant sooo much, but offer little to validate your statements. whats your deal?? gal stones or an od on viagra??? the only young people i have seen with a drill has been me and my friend....and that was a couple months ago and we were not putting new bolts in. i really only see older people drilling away...... sup wit dat?? Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Seems he doesn't get very far off the beaten track. Those that bitch just show their ignorance or their spweing nature. Kudos to all that particpated in the clean-up. Hey PPubic your just a sport monkey anyway. How far off the beaten track do you head nowadays? Your spew just as much as anyone here. You just try to hide your snide comments. Just like you hide behind your name. Let's go climbing in the Mountains together soon so you can see what fun is really about. I got one picked out. Lots of thrashing and devil's club. Quote
Dennis_Harmon Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 eric, I didn't really discern a question there, but we'll try an answer anyway and then ask one of you, hopefully in a respectful and intelligible form. We old-farts have traditionally tried to minimize our impact on the rock thru pinning and bolting, hence the advent of the "clean climbing" ethic so espoused by guys like Yvon Chounard, Royal robbins, and others of the "trad generation." (God, but I hate that term... almost makes me embarrassed to write it.) There was a time when if a bolt couldn't be placed on lead then it didn't get placed, or you found some other means, or you deferred to the mountain and went elsewhere. But I guess ethics no longer count thanks to the fucking French, cordless drills, and an entire generation who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. If your generation aspired to the same ethical standard of only bolting on the lead it would nip most of this horse shit in the bud and we wouldn't be having this discussion. There, I hope that answers your question. Now my turn... What do you consider "old" to be... 25? Dennis Quote
erik Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 I CONSIDER 'OLD' ANY PERSON WHO IS SO SET WITHIN THEIR WAYS THAT THEY REFUSE TO ACCEPT CHANGE FOR BETTER OR WORSE. PEOPLE WHO CANNOT AND REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT THERE IS AND WILL BE ATLEAST TWO SIDES TO EVERY ISSUE. OLD IS A REALITIVE TERM...I TRY NOT TO LABEL PEOPLE. THAT IS WHERE MAJOR DIFFERENCES START...IE: BLACK AND WHITE. I DO NOT ATTEPMPT TO CATAGORIZE PEOPLE INTO PHYLEMS IN AN ATTEMPT TO SEPERATE MYSELF FROM OTHERS THAT I MAY DISAGREE WITH. I PREFER PERSONAL INTERACTION WITH OTHERS AND AT THAT TIME MAKE MY OWN DETERMINATION OF WHOM A PERSON IS. HOPE THAT HELPS Quote
Dwayner Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 [ 06-20-2002, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Dwayner ] Quote
Peter_Puget Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 LOL I am a reactive spewer Cavey. Marching to the defense of the American Way! Actually for once I have been out climbing stealing crags out from underneath you. Quote
Dwayner Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Brother Erik-Dawg wrote: "I CONSIDER 'OLD' ANY PERSON WHO IS SO SET WITHIN THEIR WAYS THAT THEY REFUSE TO ACCEPT CHANGE FOR BETTER OR WORSE. PEOPLE WHO CANNOT AND REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT THERE IS AND WILL BE ATLEAST TWO SIDES TO EVERY ISSUE." Just because there may be many sides to an issue, doesn't mean that they are equally valid. With apologies for the drama, I'll use an extreme example unrelated to climbing to make the point: I can read all of the National Socialist literature there is, and "understand" their viewpoint, but I can also refuse to accept their "changes" and condemn their policy of exterminating Jews and others. So if that fits your definition of "old", I am ancient!!! shalom, Dwayner-dawg Quote
Peter_Puget Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Dwayner quote: "Are you insinuating that I "enjoy the rant more than the cause"? Quite a bold statement from someone who doesn't know me. Your vocabulary is a lot bigger than your facility with logic. Many of your posts are loaded with baseless assumptions such as the comment I just quoted." Peter quote: "Jay of course you are correct, but simply put they enjoy the rant more than the cause." Def Websters: Insinuate: 1.to introduce or work into gradually, indirectly and artfully. 2. to hint or suggest indirectly;imply I believe I was quite direct not an insinuation at all. Dwayner quote: Your vocabulary is a lot bigger than your facility with logic. Hmm No comment. And if I was wrong about claiming you edited your comments was that error a baseless assumption? I'll let others decide. Now even I am bored with this discussion. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 I dont care much about stealing crags Pubic. I'll be trying my hands mostly in the mountains. Embrace the dirt, lichen, bugs, bushes, weather. Cragging is fun but it's just part of the bigger plan for me. You are reactive and disrespecting in your own way. Quote
Dwayner Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Mr. Noggin say: "I notice the ones that spew endlessly about that nasty bolt some where on an unseen crag are the same ones that don't give back to climbing, they just take from it and spray bout ethics. I don't see them at cleanups, trail projects or belonging to access groups." How would you know such a thing? If we don't attend the same meetings or outings as you, and aren't personally recognized by you, than you know that we aren't giving back???!!! You probably couldn't pick me out of a line-up and vice-versa. "I personaly see them as the biggest threat to our access." I personally see unrestrained bolting and undereducated climbers as the biggest threat to our access. As I've stated before, if I were the land manager of the disaster at Vantage, I would ban climbing at least until some sort of restraint (preferably self-imposed) was initiated. Anyway, you need a beer. go ahead, it's free ah shucks, there's more where that came from Give me them things! Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Oh yeah Pubic, I think you are the big gaper here. Quote
Dwayner Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 [ 06-20-2002, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Dwayner ] Quote
Peter_Puget Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Dwayner quote: How would you know such a thing? If we don't attend the same meetings or outings as you, and aren't personally recognized by you, than you know that we aren't giving back???!!! You probably couldn't pick me out of a line-up and vice-versa. Noggin - Dwayner is insinuating (see def 2) that he does. Then he tries putting you on the defensive. In the interests of clarity I say Dwayner start naming your events. Name and Dates please. Most recent first. He's using the I can't argue so I'll try running over you. From most recent backwards. PP [ 06-18-2002, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ] Quote
Dwayner Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 I'm not a member of any of these organizations and don't intend to join any. I participate in cleaning up the crags and mountains as I enjoy them and I teach my students to do the same and encourage others as well. Everyone can do their part without joining a group or club. So don't expect to see me at any of these meetings or outings...it ain't my thing. It doesn't mean that I'm not contributing nor uninterested. That will cost you an extra-long hug...30 seconds at least, and I'll be holding the stop-watch. Quote
pope Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 "Cleaning up" at the crags can and does include a wide variety of activities and objectives, but I would say they all involve the removal of trash. Turns out, last time I devoted six hours of my time to drive to and from eight hours of rather loosely organized trash removal....let's just say I was looking for the shiny, metalic variety. The point I was making about discussion of bolting next to cracks may be summarized as this: whether one agrees that we're wrestling with this issue or not, I would submit that it's ludicrous that we're even discussing it. That bolting next to cracks occurs in Leavenworth (as has been addressed on this site recently) is disgusting; that climbers then state their opposition seems parallel to declaring disapproval of baby killers, cancer and rust. Gentlemen, if you feel this way about it, buy a crowbar or pickle fork or whatever. Afterall, a good clean-up party is better than any rant, and if you just stop talking and start chopping, Mr. Puget will be left to torture himself with annoying monologues. Quote
pope Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JayB: Pope/Dwayner: Dudes...I was just trying to say that extremists tend to undermine the causes they hope to advance by alienating most of the people who might support them. Judging by your comments it seems clear that both of you take pride in the fact that you've always given climbing gyms and sport crags a wide berth. Dude, you've obviously learned reading comprehension from Lambone, or maybe you've been taking logic lessons from Peter Pounder. How else may one explain the way you seem to have pulled that assertion out of your arse? My comments on gym climbing have been mostly positive. In fact, I was a member of a climbing gym for years, and I enjoyed the fitness and (occasionally) the social exchanges. Checking out the exotic talent made the exorbitant membership fees worth the price. I see little harm in gym climbing, or even sport climbing when it's confined to a chossy cliff. To bad it never works out that way. Quote
Dennis_Harmon Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 pope, You are definitely correct on that one. I'm going to drag Retro out with his new found pry bar and we're 'Going To Town' on some really stupid shit, and all you sport ass-holes beware. You'd better take time off from work to defend your "masterpieces" of yuppie craftmanship because we're sick of your bull shit and they're gonna get chopped (and filled.) Commit your drills to the abyss because it's a (Brave New) world out there and, unfortunatly, it's not yours. Also, you may want to bring baseball bats, because we're going to have them too. Good Luck, Dennis Quote
anthonysmarocks Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Hey Butt Buddies, a womans point of view is this: My man packs a gun that drills deep. I love my bolts. Sport Climbing is like Sport Sex, it is harder, faster, deeper, and I don't have to pack a shitload of unused gear to be hard. Pack your crow bar, 'cuz you are shooting blanks. Quote
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