Pencil_Pusher Posted April 23, 2004 Posted April 23, 2004 I'm more in agreement with mattp. Add to climbers' impact us driving our smelly polluting cars to trailheads and destroying alpine vegetation in the name of 'routes'. Snowmobiles and dirt bikes are a real kick in the pants. As for pollution, even the peacenicks contribute significant amounts of pollution to our environment while yelling at others for doing the same. Quote
JoshK Posted April 23, 2004 Posted April 23, 2004 Do you realize how much a car puts off in terms of pollution compared to a snow-mo? It is on the order of hundreds, if not thousands of times. Not to mention the giant ass rig (always a truck...which doesn't have to meet air quality standards as low as cars) you have to haul it up there. Just worth pointing out... I dont think anybody was arguing to eliminate snow-mos, just keep them out of the alpine. The impact a climber (or even lots of them) put on the alpine environment is tiny compared to snow-mos. Quote
JoshK Posted April 23, 2004 Posted April 23, 2004 Do you realize how much a snow-mo puts off in terms of pollution compared to a car? It is on the order of hundreds, if not thousands of times more. Not to mention the giant ass rig (always a truck...which doesn't have to meet air quality standards as low as cars) you have to haul it up there. Just worth pointing out... I dont think anybody was arguing to eliminate snow-mos, just keep them out of the alpine. The impact a climber (or even lots of them) put on the alpine environment is tiny compared to snow-mos. Quote
catbirdseat Posted April 23, 2004 Posted April 23, 2004 Let me get this straight Josh. Are you are saying that cars and trucks put out hundreds of times more pollution than snomobiles? Are you talking aggregate or per vehicle? Quote
cracked Posted April 23, 2004 Posted April 23, 2004 I think he got it backwards, that snomobiles create far more pollution. What I don't get is: why not just pass legistation stating that snomobiles have to meet pollution standards similar to the standards for cars? Then the manufacturers would be forced to make 4 cycle engines common, which are far quieter, and I would have less of an issue with them. But IMHO, I believe that rather than check snow park permits and writing tickets to climbers, rangers' time would be better spent ticketing snomobiles who go where they shouldn't. Quote
thrutch Posted April 24, 2004 Posted April 24, 2004 Cracked, The reason being is that the recreational vehicle lobby is much more powerful then anything a climbing lobby could muster. It all comes down to money and the way the U.S. government sees fit to enforce their "ideal" theory. From a vehicle one does not really have to interact with natire to experience it, it is a visual enjoyment. The Dept. of Agriculture has a warped sense of reality, driven soley on the dollar. Quote
HIKER1 Posted May 13, 2004 Posted May 13, 2004 I was up there that day when the guy fell in the crevasse. Yes, I am a snowmobiler so you can start throwing stones... What I felt was "great" was to watch people come together in a time of need. Skiers, hikers, snowmobilers. Everyone stopped what they were doing to try to help out. In the end the guy was saved and that is the important part. Unfortunately when things aren't on the line different groups of people have a much harder time getting along. I for one, will always help out when someone is in need, especially in the backcountry, it's a must! I don't care what you do, that's your thing, just have fun, be careful and respectful to other and the environment. This particular area (NRA) on Mt Baker is open to snowmobiling, even where the snowmobile fell into the crevasse. The person who fell in was not breaking any laws and he and I are very mindful of the wilderness boundaries. The NRA area is a multi use area, so that means everyone can be there, which unfortunately can create the tensions between the different groups, which are being voiced here in this thread. Snowmobilier's are just people who want to go out and enjoy the outdoors "like you", they just enjoy it in a different manner. Most of them, I feel, are very courteous towards skiers and hikers and try to respect that, by passing you slowly on the trail, giving a wave as we pass by and so on. As far as snowmobiliers invading the wilderness area I believe that education is the key. Snowmobiles are advancing so quickly that they are taking people further into the mountains with less effort. So now you could have wilderness violations by accident, where in the past it would take an expert rider to even get close to the wilderness. Although, honestly, I believe most snowmobilers do not infringe on the wilderness area. If you see someone riding where they shouldn't, try to inform them that they are breaking the law. Be mindful that if you tell them NICELY, they will be more willing to listen to you and what you have to say. I believe if people know the rules they will obey. Lastly, the snowmobile that fell into the crevasse…. Every attempt is being made to extract the snowmobile from the crevasse. It was decided that due to the complexity of the extraction they were going to wait for better weather and obtain a skilled crew for the job so no lives would be put at risk. Yes, the forest service was informed of the incident, by the party that fell into the crevasse. Have fun on the snow and maybe I'll see some of you up there. I'll be the one cleaning up the snow parks this weekend... Quote
HIKER1 Posted May 13, 2004 Posted May 13, 2004 St Helens is open to snowmobiles, except for designated areas... Quote
btowle Posted May 13, 2004 Posted May 13, 2004 St Helens is open to snowmobiles, except for designated areas... Yes, we are painfully aware that we have to pay to climb where you get to go for free. Quote
Dustin_B Posted May 13, 2004 Posted May 13, 2004 You know the phrase "one bad apple spoils the whole batch" or something like that? I don't think that this is the case with bilers. On my way out from the Easton last year, the bilers where blazing all over the place (near to camp too, not just one, but several). I picked up 2 hand fulls of snowmobile parts and beer cans (not likely packed in by climbers/hikers). All this trash most likely came from more than one biler. I think this was a case of more than one bad apple spoiling the whole batch. In this case the whole damn batch was bad. As long as there are many bilers out there that are assholes and environmentally insensitive, climbers/hikers will continue to frown upon them. Its not like these are isolated incidents. Everyone seems to have a story! Quote
Skeezix Posted May 13, 2004 Posted May 13, 2004 I can understand some use of snowmobiles to get somewhere over snow for a specific purpose, but recreational riding is intrusive on others because of the noise and smell. These people need to get some skis and exercise themselves ...lose the obsession with motorized recreation. Otherwise we'll all turn into a bunch of fat redneck losers. Quote
JoshK Posted May 13, 2004 Posted May 13, 2004 It is good to see that hiker1 is responsible, but I think there is a large % of his fellow snowmobilers that are not. You drive vehicles and you need to be restricted to the snowed over forest roads. Snowmobiles have no more place in the alpine than a toyota truck does in a mt bachelor snowboard pipe. Quote
Multipleuse Posted May 13, 2004 Posted May 13, 2004 You have to love Al Gore’s internet. Kind of fun to read the hate some of you have towards the evil “bilers”. Can’t we all just get along? We all have horror stories of our those we love to hate. The two worst experiences I have had with people in over 30 years of hunting, hiking, x-country skiing, snowshoeing, boy scout leadership, motorcycle riding…. were with cross country skiers at Crystal springs/Iron horse trail and the trail head at Mt Baker. I actually stopped near a cross country skier that I honestly thought was hurt (the way she was sprawled on the trail) only to have her ream me a new one for being on a closed trail. I apologized, but wondered if she was right. Luckily, back at the sno-park, the Sheriff was there and I talked to him with my map in hand. He fully explained the map and told me there had been several instances like this. As I rode back down the trail, I stopped and offered the map to the group of skiers and suggested that instead of verbally attacking a sledder, she should have her facts straight. She wadded up the map and threw it at my feet. I think her husband/lover was actually embarrassed by her action. At Baker, I was naïve and shocked at the obnoxious trail blocking and angry comments we got from the skiers as we were preparing to go up Baker. It is officially declared open/closed by some magical spot in Schriebers meadow. There were some low spots of snow and there were 4 foot piles. I was glad to enjoy the nice weather and an opportunity to be on the mountain. In some of the narrow trail spots going through the trees, the click-clicks refused to move off the trail as they stood there and rested. The part that I don’t understand from my Multiple use viewpoint is why would you go to the NRA of Baker on a sunny day late in the spring, knowing it was open to snowmobilers, then complain about it. That mountain has way more area open for you than us. Kind of like buying a prime spot of real estate at the airport runway, then complaining/suing over the noise. If you hate us so much, just go somewhere else until the 24” min is hit. Bottom line, I respect the forests and the opportunity to enjoy them as much as you do. I would rather see 50 miles worth in a day with a motor than 10 without! And if any of you think that riding a snowmobile is not physically demanding, I have a bridge to sell. It can be very physically challenging. Come along for a ride and I garuntee muscles you didn't know you had will ache the first few rides. (Arms, Legs, Shoulders) Flame away now but remember, “let him without sin cast the first stone”. All climbers are not as pure as you want to portray Quote
cracked Posted May 13, 2004 Posted May 13, 2004 If riding a 'bile is so physically demanding, then why are most 'bilers old and fat? There are rude dicks on skis, too, but first off, you don't hear them from several miles off, you can easily get away from them, and they have way less of an impact on the environment on average. Machines shouldn't be allowed anywhere but on roads. I bitch about snowmobiles because they ruin what I go to the mountains for to get. I also bitch about 'biles because of the damage I've seen done from one or two jackasses on them. 24 inch minimum, huh? Tell that to the loses who tore up the Long's Pass trail on Stuart last year. And the assholes who tear up the meadows below the Easton. Climbers and skiers aren't 'pure', we're less obnoxious, less noticable, and less damaging to the mountains. Your buddy 'hiker' says that you are 'courteous' by passing us slowly and waving while doing so. Well, thanks, that wave will keep me happy while listening to you roar around all day. Thanks for being so courteous. Snowmobiles give you a workout. That's a treat! Quote
slaphappy Posted May 13, 2004 Posted May 13, 2004 St Helens is open to snowmobiles, except for designated areas... Yes, we are painfully aware that we have to pay to climb where you get to go for free. Free? Hardly. Registration is around $50 a year per sled, not to mention trailers. For the sake of further diminishing my popularity on this BB... I have an extremely hard time believing some of these stories. I just don't see the "hooligans" described here. I feel many of your preconceived notions regarding this user group clouds reality. As a climber, bc snowboarder, and snowmobiler, I have not noticed "oil cans", "parts" or an abundance of "beer cans". (in snowmobile areas vs. non-snowmobiling areas) There is no need to carry extra oil on any modern sled. They are all oil injected and have a reservoir that holds enough for multiple tanks of fuel. All of the high performance mountain sleds use a full synthetic oil and not much at that. (2-3 gallons per 1000 miles) An effort has been made to improve the stench, although their sucess is debatable. The only reason parts would be left behind is due to an accident (they happen) and everyone I know makes an effort to remove all traces. I can't remember ever seeing any in the places I frequent. (never ridden on Baker, that interferes with cragging season) Beer cans seem to sprout up where people go, I don't think blaming it on snowmobilers is very objective. I use my sled primarily as a tool to access the bc with my split board, but would be a liar if I said I don't go "whip shitties" a few times a season. Highmarking is a hell of a rush not dissimilar to the one achieved by bc skiing or climbing. I do see sleds in areas that they are not supposed to be in but I think ignorance is most often the reason. It is particularly difficult in the winter to determine exactly where the boundaries are, even more so in some of the less used areas and poor weather conditions. Poachers should be held accountable for their actions. I disagree with you JoshK, I do think the alpine is a fine environment for snowmobiling if good judgement is used. Snowmobiles have been a part of my life since I can remember. I will continue to use one as a tool to access the best bc snowboarding the cascades has to offer and an occasional day out high-marking with friends. I have probably the only Polaris RMK in the state with a snowboard rack mounted on the back so if you see me (doubtful) I would be happy to give you a tow or a ride up to a trailhead and share a (I pack out my cans!) Damn, I'm ready for winter again! Quote
slaphappy Posted May 14, 2004 Posted May 14, 2004 Cracked, have you ridden a mountain sled for any amount of time? Clearly not. Most 'bilers old and fat, I think not. Multipleuse is spot on about the physical demands of snowmobiling. I'm strong and in fine shape and I come home worked after a day of riding in the mountains. (There are plenty of old, fat, beer schwilling "climbers" as well) Get over yourself little man. Quote
cj001f Posted May 14, 2004 Posted May 14, 2004 St Helens is open to snowmobiles, except for designated areas... Yes, we are painfully aware that we have to pay to climb where you get to go for free. Free? Hardly. Registration is around $50 a year per sled, not to mention trailers. Whoopee! We pay (in season) $15 every damn time we want to go - unless you buy the "volcano pass" bs. But wait - you get a Snowpark permit FREE! with your $50 registration! Trailers are a motor vehicle fee. Bitch at the DMV Quote
Fairweather Posted May 14, 2004 Posted May 14, 2004 MultipleUse, This life-long hiker/climber wholly supports your right to ride in existing areas now designated for sleds, including St Helens and the south side of Baker. No caveats attached. Sorry that some of the folks you share your very limited slice of backcountry with never learned to play well with others. RIDE ON! Quote
JoshK Posted May 14, 2004 Posted May 14, 2004 And if any of you think that riding a snowmobile is not physically demanding, I have a bridge to sell. It can be very physically challenging. Come along for a ride and I garuntee muscles you didn't know you had will ache the first few rides. (Arms, Legs, Shoulders) I'd be happy to join you on a long ride and I'd welcome you to see if you can hang for a nice 20 mile, 12k vertical day. We'll compare notes afterwards and see which one is physically demanding or not. Seriously tho, riding on forest roads, while annoying to everybody within 2 miles is a far cry from the alpine. machines have no place in the alpine, end of story. Quote
mattp Posted May 14, 2004 Posted May 14, 2004 Sorry that some of the folks you share your very limited slice of backcountry with never learned to play well with others. RIDE ON! This is twice in two days I've agreed with you, Mr. Fairweather. I'm not so sure I support their access to the entirety of Mount Saint Helens, if that is indeed the case, but as I pointed out on the prior page of this thread: the pie shaped slice of the south side of Mount Baker is the only truly alpine mountain where they are allowed in the entire state. If you don't want to share the mountains with them, there are LOTS of other glacier climbs to choose from. It's a matter of the allocation of resources, folks. We want areas designated for our use; so do they. Those of you who complain about their much greater noise and pollution than you should at least recognize the fact that they are limited to a very small portion of the high Cascades -- most of the peaks you hold dear lie within wilderness areas or the North Cascade and Rainier parks where I belive they are excluded entirely. Quote
slaphappy Posted May 14, 2004 Posted May 14, 2004 St Helens is open to snowmobiles, except for designated areas... Yes, we are painfully aware that we have to pay to climb where you get to go for free. Free? Hardly. Registration is around $50 a year per sled, not to mention trailers. Whoopee! We pay (in season) $15 every damn time we want to go - unless you buy the "volcano pass" bs. But wait - you get a Snowpark permit FREE! with your $50 registration! Trailers are a motor vehicle fee. Bitch at the DMV First of all, I have and do pay the same fee you do when I "climb" MSH as well as my $50 to use my sled, which incidently I have not and wouldn't take on MSH for my own particular reasons. Secondly if I'm paying $50 for my registration and snowpark pass, how is that free? JoshK- your comparison is weak. They are both physicaly demanding in different ways. Machines may not have a place in the designated wilderness (something which there is plenty of in this state) but they do have a place in the alpine if good judgement is used. Some of you really need to be a bit more tolerant of other user groups. Quote
richard_noggin Posted May 14, 2004 Posted May 14, 2004 Divide and conquer is the mans way of control! If we keep not wanting to share the outdoors and fighting amongst ourselfs we as outdoor user groups get nowhere, imagine what a voteing force all the outdoor user groups combined would make. Can't everyone stay off MY mountains so I can have them all to myself And keep those dang bicycles off the roads also And those knuckle drag'n snow boarders off the slopes Horse riders off MY trails Oh yeah those pansy ass sport climbers off MY cliffs. NEED I GO ON DICK Quote
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