Lambone Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by gregm: not sure if this has been brought up, but the weakness of daisies is not the tensil strength but the fact that they are not dynamic and consequently exert a huge force on the anchor or your body. if you are clipped to an anchor at or feet and take a fall you end up taking a factor 2 fall and the resulting stresses on the system. (at least this is what i think i read by something by petzl). you also never want to clip two loops because the you are only on the stitching between the loops. if you clip one loop you are on a bar tacked runner. that said my vote is: i always tie off on a clove. but i keep a daisy ready on my harness for 1) setting up rapels sometimes and 2) unfucking the rope and 3) reserve tank runner / anchor material. Greg, you're totaly right. Although tieing into the anchor with four feet of rope is esentialy static as well...would you agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Bronco: I don't know. At the top of the colum it says "Strength" Then under that it says "Impact Force" Then the 8.2kN. I am not sure what you are getting at. We dont speak passive aggressive here. get to the point man! Read above warrior. I think I have been at this a little while.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Fair enough. Statement in the declarative rather than interrogative tense and more weeny-speak coming up: The 8.2kN figure is the maximum force (the impact force) that the rope will generate when holding a climbers fall rather than the maximum tensile strength of the rope. The UIAA and EN regs require a dynamic rope to have an impact force of less than 12kN when holding a factor two fall with an 80kg load in an attempt to limit the forces on the climber, pro, etc. Not sure what the maximum tensile load a typical climbing rope can handle is, but in most high-load falls I've read about it's always been the biners, gear, or runner that fails rather than the rope. Most biners I've seen have a rating between 18 and 25 kN so I'm thinking that the maximum strength of the rope must be at least that high or higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JayB: but in most high-load falls I've read about it's always been the biners, gear, or runner that fails rather than the rope. Most biners I've seen have a rating between 18 and 25 kN so I'm thinking that the maximum strength of the rope must be at least that high or higher. Werd. Hear ye Bronco Billy dont tie in to the rope when you climb Orbit this weeekend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 I saw a climbing rope break once in a tug of war. It nearly killed Fern too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 DUDE! harsh toke pulling rank on me! I must humble myself in the presence of one of my mentors. I'm not worthy!! Don't trundle on me if you see me tomorow. Maybe we will see you out there for a or three. watch out for the stihl hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JayB: Fair enough. Statement in the declarative rather than interrogative tense and more weeny-speak coming up: The 8.2kN figure is the maximum force (the impact force) that the rope will generate when holding a climbers fall rather than the maximum tensile strength of the rope. The UIAA and EN regs require a dynamic rope to have an impact force of less than 12kN when holding a factor two fall with an 80kg load in an attempt to limit the forces on the climber, pro, etc. Not sure what the maximum tensile load a typical climbing rope can handle is, but in most high-load falls I've read about it's always been the biners, gear, or runner that fails rather than the rope. Most biners I've seen have a rating between 18 and 25 kN so I'm thinking that the maximum strength of the rope must be at least that high or higher. Good to know. thank you for clarifying that the rope is probably at least as strong as a daisy and further validates my thought that Caveman is indeed a climbing god. [ 05-24-2002, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Bronco ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 I am not climbing god more like climbing fat blob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Four feet of dynamic climbing rope is not "essentially" static. It will soften the blow, much more than a static runner like a daisy. I tie in with the rope(s) on a clove hitch. I back up one of the cloves with a something on a bight. The bight knot is further down the rope enough so's as to not impede the adjustability you get from the clove. I use the backup just in case the clove slips. If I'm only using one rope, I back up the one rope tie-in with a runner. I don't have a daisy, but sometimes I wish I did in place of the runner to have a more conveniently adjustable tie-in. But I guess I've never needed one. Sure looks handy though. If I'm planning on rapping from the anchors, I won't tie in with the rope . I heard a story down at the UW Rock about a fairly frequent poster here not cinching down his clove adequately and ended up falling off the top of Jello Tower to the base. The guy is obviously still with us, so either the clove slowed him down enough so he didn't get killt, or the story is bogus . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: I saw a climbing rope break once in a tug of war. It nearly killed Fern too.... so is the lesson then that tying in with the rope is plenty strong enough for only one person, but on those Mountaineers rope teams of 50 they maybe ought to back themselves up with daisy chains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 The lesson is, Dont tie the climbing rope onto your SUV bumper and start driving it away when you are playing tug of war, you could break your hand if the rope snaps. Or more generally, people get hurt when they are drunk at parties and do stupid stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: Or more generally, people get hurt when they are drunk at parties and do stupid stuff. that one statment has just changed my outlook on life. never did i think that such things as bad or stupid, maybe slightly questionable and risque. nut never stupid. drul thanx for the enlightment!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&th=4d43eff4ccf22e59 The Big Boys of Rec.climbing debate the same issue, as usual with all sorts of a) stupid ideas like putting Screamers on your daisies, b) apocryphal stories about people static falling on daisies and rupturing their spleens (HUH???) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregm Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: quote:Originally posted by gregm: if you are clipped to an anchor at or feet and take a fall you end up taking a factor 2 fall and the resulting stresses on the system. Greg, you're totaly right. Although tieing into the anchor with four feet of rope is esentialy static as well...would you agree? according to the putzl article, you get enough stretch in four feet of rope to handle a low velocity fall, and enough stretch in 30 feet of rope to handle a high velocity fall, so it turns into a similar impact on your harness. i can't find the original article i read (it was a photocopy) but if you go to their web page they have somethin similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son_of_Caveman Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: [QB]stupid ideas like putting Screamers on your daisies, QB] I wouldn't mind putting tassels on Daisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 maybe I am misremembering, maybe many spleens have ruptured on the Shield, but the incident I thought I recalled reading about in ANAM involved Rich Prohaska clove hitching to every piece on a rivet ladder and then taking a static fall when a homemade hanger ripped a swage ... or whatever ... I don't care ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 I don't know. At the top of the colum it says "Strength" Then under that it says "Impact Force" Then the 8.2kN. I am not sure what you are getting at. We dont speak passive aggressive here. get to the point man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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