Rappelling

[texplorer]

What is up with all the "by the book" stuff lately. Whatever happened to the first page in the climbing guides?

 

Come on folks, I guess if you want to be a gumby and wear a helmet, your seatbelt, and triple check everything before you rap that's ok with me. I just don't want to climb with you because I get impatient with that crap. There is a difference between being sloppy and being a safety-consciencous freak.

 

I make sure my belay device is on right the first time and go. I visually inspect a partner if they are rapping too. I never tie knots in the ends of the ropes unless it looks like its really close to the next anchor and still watch for the ends as I rappell. You can still be fast and safe. So I am tired of this drivel about rapping and gym safety, belay escapes, and other such preaching.

[chucK]

sucks to be you I guess

[DCramer]

LOWERING OFF CHAINS IS BAD!!!! Never lower off chains. Ever.

 

There are a couple of problems with this. First, most chains which are placed in climbing areas were not designed for climbers to climb on. The weight of a climber lowering on chains slowly cuts them. Eventually the bottom link becomes useless. Rappelling off chains and then pulling the rope does not have this effect. It is far better to place carabiners through the bolts for your top-rope and then to simply rappel when you are finished.

 

Locals in most climbing areas end up footing the bill for new chains or chain links. This may not sound like it's that big a deal, but it is. In a large climbing area there are thousands of climbs where this is happening and local climbing organizations and individuals seldom have the resources to fix this problem.

 

Jason

 

 

I use to agree with the sentiments express by Jason but now do not. True chains wear out faster if climbers are lowered than if a rap descent was used but what does that mean? Not much. A well-designed anchor should be easily maintainable and “backup-able” in the field. Climbers as a group should be encouraged to contribute to maintenance efforts. For decades people willingly left additional sling materials when the need arose, I think believing that climbers might replace a length of chain doesn't require an impossible leap of the imagination. I agree that TR'ing does cause excess wear.

[texplorer]

Yes, it does, but I am sucking in the car back home with a 2-liter coke while you are still 5 pitches off the ground in an icestorm triple checking your belay device and unsticking your ropes.

[Ducknut]

Jason, great post. This is the first I have heard of your system in which both climbers clip in for rappel at the same time on extended rappel devices. Interesting concept. Anyone else ever do that?

 

There are pro's and con's to the extension. Number one pro in my mind is it is easy to see the set up and it keeps coats, slings, clothes and other shit from getting sucked into the rap device. The concern I would have about a shoulder length sling is that puts the ATC/whatever out of your reach if something did go wrong. You wouldn't be able to reach to clear it or pass a knot or do whatever else you needed to do.

 

I use an autoblock occasionally especially if I know it is going to be a free rappel.

 

Save the chains clip a locker or two through the chains and rap off of it. I ALWAYS use my personal protection as a backup when I am testing the system. Its the first thing on and the last thing off as I go over the edge.

[Fejas]

What is up with all the "by the book" stuff lately. Whatever happened to the first page in the climbing guides?

 

Come on folks, I guess if you want to be a gumby and wear a helmet, your seatbelt, and triple check everything before you rap that's ok with me. I just don't want to climb with you because I get impatient with that crap. There is a difference between being sloppy and being a safety-consciencous freak.

 

I make sure my belay device is on right the first time and go. I visually inspect a partner if they are rapping too. I never tie knots in the ends of the ropes unless it looks like its really close to the next anchor and still watch for the ends as I rappell. You can still be fast and safe. So I am tired of this drivel about rapping and gym safety, belay escapes, and other such preaching.

 

True dat! I don't see whats so scary bout rappeling anyways.

[Jason_Martin]

Yeah Mike, as you know, I usually don't tie knots in the end of the rope. But my point is that if you're going to do it, tie the ropes seperately.

 

Not lame, this is a valid concern. What you can do is tie in through the chains with a sling as a back up. Tell your belayer to Take! and weight the rope. If everything looks good, unclip the sling and lower.

 

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Never put the ropes through the chains unless you are rappelling. Don't lower through chains at all. If you look closely at chains where this is happening on a regular basis, you will see that they are wearing out. The best thing to do is to just rappel instead of lowering off chains.

 

If you look at the chains and then decide that they are fine for lowering off of, then you are part of the problem. Every time a person lowers off chains they get cut a little bit. If you rappel you are not contributing to the problem.

 

Maybe I sound a little pissy about this... The reason is because I've spent a lot of my own cash replacing chains or links that are getting worn through. It is a REAL problem.

 

Jason

[sk]

Yes, it does, but I am sucking in the car back home with a 2-liter coke while you are still 5 pitches off the ground in an icestorm triple checking your belay device and unsticking your ropes.

LOL true dat!!!!! this from the man who climbed the nose in what??? 15 hours.

 

that is good for tex

each of us have to manage our own risk and climb with people with a similure risk level.

[MrDoolittle]

I started this thread in Spray because I felt that the seperate forum might prevent any extra grief, and that posting this type of info in a thread in response to an accident has traditionally been seen as lacking in tact.

 

I have seen a partner rap off the end of a rope, I have also seen a partner set up a rap without actually threading the ropes through the anchor. Thankfully, both times, no one got seriously hurt.

 

I personally had an experience where I moved to disconnect my daisy from the anchor and suddenly realized that I had not put myself on rappel.

 

Unlike the rest of climbing, where you can most times get away with small mistakes, if you make a single mistake rappelling, you deck.

Edited March 8, 2004 by MrDoolittle

[catbirdseat]

All I have to say to Tex is that it takes one screw up and you are dead. It doesn't matter how experienced you are, you can still screw up. You do things the way you prefer. If one is climbing at the crags, time is not a concern. Some would prefer to increase their safety margin. Don't criticize them for it.

[burgersling]

.

Edited March 8, 2004 by burgersling

[catbirdseat]

Jason, there are two issues at play, safety and etiquette. Lowering from chains is safe, but not considerate of others, especially those who maintain routes.

[Jason_Martin]

I use to agree with the sentiments express by Jason but now do not. True chains wear out faster if climbers are lowered than if a rap descent was used but what does that mean? Not much. A well-designed anchor should be easily maintainable and “backup-able” in the field. Climbers as a group should be encouraged to contribute to maintenance efforts. For decades people willingly left additional sling materials when the need arose, I think believing that climbers might replace a length of chain doesn't require an impossible leap of the imagination. I agree that TR'ing does cause excess wear.

 

The problem is that slings are not chains. While I agree that climbers as a whole are totally willing to leave corelette or sling material to back things up when needed, they are not so willing to replace chains.

 

Most climbers who see the bottom link of a chain getting bad will just start to use the next one up. There's no attempt to fix the problem or to replace the chain. That's someone elses job. The vast majority of the people reading this right now have never replaced a chain and probably never will. That being the case, then there is no reason for them to be lowering off chains thus degrading them more quickly and then waiting for someone else to replace them.

 

Jason

[MrDoolittle]

Jason's point, IMHO, and I agree, is that lowering off chains is most certainly not safe. You degrade the material that you are counting on to keep you off the deck.

 

The last time I went to Vantage, we found "Rap Anchors" that were so chewed through from people lowering off of them that 50% of the original material was missing. I call that unsafe, rather than inconvienent.

Edited March 8, 2004 by MrDoolittle

[Jason_Martin]

Jason, there are two issues at play, safety and etiquette. Lowering from chains is safe, but not considerate of others, especially those who maintain routes.

 

A good chunk of the time it is safe. Especially when the chains are relatively new. But you're right. This is my main concern.

 

Most people are bright enough not to use the chains which are getting hammered. But then again, there's a reason that they look like they do. Someone is using them. And ultimately, this is why they have to be changed out by the people who maintain them.

Edited March 8, 2004 by Jason_Martin

[slothrop]

Yes, it does, but I am sucking in the car back home with a 2-liter coke while you are still 5 pitches off the ground in an icestorm triple checking your belay device and unsticking your ropes.

 

Riiiiiight. It takes 5 seconds to double-check your setup and zero extra time to leave yourself clipped in until you can weight your rap device to test it.

[texplorer]

C-seat,

I understand that not everyone thinks the way I do. I am not criticizing being safe. What I am complaining about is why people have to come on here and remind us (who really already know) how to do it "right". Climbing is inherently dangerous PERIOD. If you want a totally safe sport then maybe climbing is not for you. I personally enjoy the possibility of danger and the thrill of knowing that every little action is important. That is what keeps me interested in climbing. . . and yes, if you screw up, you die. I think we all know that. You climb the way you want and I'll climb the way I want and if you don't climb like I do that's ok. (I just probably won't be trying to do some big routes with someone that in my opinion is "overly" safe.

[MrDoolittle]

I think that Tex and Fejas are displaying the same sort of cavalier attitude that leads to accidents. I personally don't give a turd if you eat dirt because you messed up in your desire to hurry back to your car, but you endanger others. Imagine, if you can, a person weighing 180lbs falling on top of you from 100ft. You'll wish they had have spent the extra 5 seconds double-checking their rap system when you get your wheelchair.

 

Regarding your helmet slam, one of the most common causes of major injury in climbing related accidents is the absence of a helmet. I ALWAYS wear my helmet.

[catbirdseat]

Not everyone who visits this site is as experienced as you. Experience levels are all over the map.

 

We are just putting out in front of people various ways to do things. Each person ultimately will decide on his or her own what to employ and what not to.

[DCramer]

I think that enough climbers can be encouraged to carry a section of replacement chain and a wrench in their pack to properly maintain anchors. The cost aspect doesn’t seem really material to me especially if a larger number of climbers were contributing.

 

Encouraging climbers to participate more in crag maintenance will provide other benefits than simply wellmaintained routes.

 

Anyway those be my thoughts on the subject.

[iain]

Yes, it does, but I am sucking in the car back home with a 2-liter coke while you are still 5 pitches off the ground in an icestorm triple checking your belay device and unsticking your ropes.

LOL true dat!!!!! this from the man who climbed the nose in what??? 15 hours.

 

that is good for tex

each of us have to manage our own risk and climb with people with a similure risk level.

 

I seem to recall seeing some pictures from Yocum Ridge of some climbers APPROACHING the first gendarme in BROAD DAYLIGHT fast-n-light fast-n-light fast-n-light. you can be safe and fast. It takes 2 seconds to throw a half-fish in a rap rope. Not that I do it every time but it's not like it takes up a whole day doing it.

[texplorer]

Riiiiiight. It takes 5 seconds to double-check your setup and zero extra time to leave yourself clipped in until you can weight your rap device to test it.

 

very true, but you forgot about tieing and untieing all those knots at the end of your ropes and I also don't use a locker to clip in at anchors either so . . .

say a 10 pitch route

10 raps x 5 secs per rap check x 2 rap checks x 2 partners = 200 sec

10 raps x 2 ends of rope x 20 sec per knot = 400 sec

10 raps x 2 ends of rope x 30 sec per untie = 600 sec

10 raps x 3 sec less than locking biner to clip in =30 sec

10 raps x 3 sec less than locking biner to unclip = 30 sec

 

200+400+600+30+30=1260 1260/60 = 21minutes

 

On a big 30 pitch route that comes out to 63 minutes and that's not even including when your ropes get stuck or the additional time your have to wait while your partner raps (because you have to wait to thread the anchors because you wouldn't want to untie the knots while they rap - this probably adds another hour or so)

[Fejas]

Please don't put me in the same light as Tex. He is a much better and profound climber than I.

 

5 seconds to run through your head is one thing, but some of the things being talked about would take a hell of alot longer than 5 seconds. and Personaly whats hard to figure out; clip in, place webbing with cheap rap bean, clip rope, rig rope with device, clip locking bean to harness and screw tight, wieght rap line, unclip, and on to the next. if ya want to back up then back it up, if ya want to tie knots tie knots, if ya want to bitch about every little detail involved with the safest way becuse yer pussy hurts than do so. personaly I don't, and I think there are other aspects of climbing that are far more dangerous and I shine my extra light of care on them instead of something like rappeling... thats all! Shit you should try jumping off a wall and spinning 360's next to raging water falls, or rapping inverted, quite excilerating.

[sk]

I think that enough climbers can be encouraged to carry a section of replacement chain and a wrench in their pack to properly maintain anchors. The cost aspect doesn’t seem really material to me especially if a larger number of climbers were contributing.

 

Encouraging climbers to participate more in crag maintenance will provide other benefits than simply wellmaintained routes.

 

Anyway those be my thoughts on the subject.

do quick links count?

[texplorer]

Yes Ian, I F@#$ed up that time. That has nothing to do with rapping except that I was off of that ridge about 2 minutes faster than slothrop and 2 minutes faster out of danger.