Peter_Puget Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 link PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgersling Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 As it stands now, the majority of outsourced jobs are in the manufacturing and services industries. Not really evidence (yet) of failure here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I heard a speaker at a seminar say that customer service jobs were moving to India because they are better trained on computers than Americans. The entire billing department for Kaiser is now located in India. Also it seems lots of jobs are being lost to automation. Anyone been to an airport recently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducknut Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 someone told me that Prez. Bush is proposing to reclassify jobs slapping a burger between two buns as a manufacturing job instead of a low-paying service industry. That is right folks working at McD's, you are now in the manufacturing sector, so go build a burger. Don't expect a pay raise to the manufacturing average of $16/hr any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gripped Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Comparing the math scores between nations at the 8th grade or higher is really inaccuarate. We are one of the few countries that MAKES EVERY ONE GO TO SCHOOL UNDER PENALTY OF LAW. In fact, most schools only let you continue on after 10th grade if you perform at a certain academic level (poorer students get vocational training)... The comparison is faulty. The US is doing fine in Math... In fact, most of the best mathematicians are Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Hear that sucking sound? That's US jobs getting flushed down the toilet while GW continues to dump billions into Iraq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I think US jobs will continue to leave the US for offshore regardless who is president. This is the reality of the newer globalized economy, where Wall Street plays and increasingly visible direct role in our economy. The funny thing is, US citizens and residents have come to expect and rely on strong, private, profitable corporate sector to drive the economy. How do those corporations become profitable, exactly? Certainly not by paying an employee salary and benefits when the same work can be performed very well by an English-speaking person who requires 1/4 or 1/2 the salary and fewer or no benefits? The trend over the last 15 years has been blue-collar manufacturing labor going "offshore" to Mexico, Canada, and places further afield. As technology and biotech become cornerstones of the US Economy (where US Steel etc once was), I see the trend moving towards outsourcing "white-collar" computer and technology related work offshore as well. The value proposition for profit-desperate corporations is the same it has always been: reduce the paid wage for the unit of work, without sacrificing quality. This is one of the principle ways you can cut costs, out-duel your competition, and stay in the black so Wall Steet will not punish you. The US's strength has always been its flexible, well-educated workforce, and its productivity compared to the rest of the world. I've been alot of places in the World, and I don't see anyone working harder than US workers, overall. The US's weakness is that its workforce somehow thinks it has a birthright to maintain a super-inflated standard of living, while the rest of the World lags far behind. It is this super-inflated standard of living that causes your job to be outsourced!!! And before anyone tries to hatch "yeah but US workers are smarter/produce better quality/have higher levels of skill", the recruiters at Microsoft and other very very successful and profitable corporations would beg to differ with you... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.radon Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'm part of a corperate team designing a five to ten year action plan for our engineering departments. Bascially I can see the writing on the wall. Even our engineering jobs are getting moved overseas. Right now we are looking at merging three engineering departments into one, and outsourcing much of the work. We will soon just be defining the interfaces and requirements. Local engineers will manage the coordination between the various players but all the drawings and parts will be designed and released by cheap overseas engineering centers. Sorry, but I have to admit that I'm working to quickly make myself un-employed. I should have gotten into finance or medician, engineering is getting outsource too. Kinda hard to outsource a local heath care worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I don't mind the concept of the global economy creating competing markets. What gets me is my tax dollars are paying for politicians to spend their time on legislation that will make it easier for our jobs to be outsourced. Jay Inslee, GW, on and on. Our government has been bought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 God, the future sure looks bleak, doesn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehead Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 If you want bleak, do a Google search of the words, Peak Oil. The idea is that our hydrocarbon resources are depleting with no viable alternative for the myriad uses of petrochemicals. If the estimates are close, then the world peak should be about 2004-2010 or so. Even if we adopt another energy source for transportation we'll still be faced with a potential shortage of food based on our use of petroleum-based fertilizers, also a shortage of other contemporary conveniences such as pharmaceuticals and plastics. Better get in good with GregW 'cause the shit may hit the fan before it improves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I think US jobs will continue to leave the US for offshore regardless who is president. This is the reality of the newer globalized economy, where Wall Street plays and increasingly visible direct role in our economy. How many of those bemoaning outsourcing cheer the rise in their 401k's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Things aren't so bad---- I forgot where I saw this calculation done but it is interesting: Let's look at some of the best jobs that have been lost to robots or foreigners. In 1913, Henry Ford instituted the $5 day for a 9 hour shift. These jobs were hard assembly line positions, but were extremely desirable work. With changes in technology, these jobs were lost. For their day, these jobs earned double the average manufacturing wage. But they are nothing special to speak of in today's terms. Deflating the $5 a day wage by the CPI-U Ford's $5 a day is a wage of 5*(184/9.9)=$93 per day in 2003 dollars, or $10.35 per hour. The average Wal-Mart employee working in the grocery section--by some cc.com posters' accounts, some of the WORST JOBS EVER--makes about $10 an hour not including benefits. So some of the lowest-skilled service industry workers today are making as much or more than the best technically-skilled assembly line workers of Henry Ford's day. And that's because of outsourcing. Forgot were I read this but it is interesting too - Toyota plant employees are more productive in the US than in Japan - same with at least one of the German auto manufacturers. One more thing to think about – In 1997 about 100,000 educated people left Canada for the US. Average income $100k, discount rate 5%, PV income 2 million. Total gift to the US $200 billion! Thanks Canada! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Increasingly, the high tech jobs will be with small startups like the one at which I work. The companies will last either until they fail for lack of funding, or succeed and are bought up by large companies so that the jobs can be sent overseas. The workers move on to the next startup. It's been the story of my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 India, the next superpower? (it could happen) Probably more likely China. My Op Ed: Three trends (of many) in America that are working against America to undermine its own superpower status: 1. The rising gulf between CEO pay and average worker pay. What was 40x in 1980 is now 500x in 2004 (eg. if the avg. pay for Joe Blow worker is $40K, then this means the avg. CEO is making $20M). That is to say, more of the money gained by a company is going toward lining the pockets of the elite within the company instead of sharing with the masses. This exacerbates the dichotomy between the two. Couple this with a marked lack of accountability for executives who fail (they still get their golden parachutes no matter what, as the AT&T Wireless fiasco illustrates), and you've got even more recipe for this growing dichotomy. They shirk the working class for their own profit. This is never good. A third wasting of corporate money (misdirected monies) is this need to have some celebrity--usually a major athlete--endorse your product for ungodly amounts of money. I think of Nike sponsoring Tiger Woods for $20M a year or whatever it is. Instead, give him $5M a year (still too much) and give the other $15M to the people within the company who might deserve it. That $15M could help pay the salaries of employees who's jobs would otherwise be outsourced. The rising pots for golf tournaments amazes me too. Same problem as the endorsement issue 2. The rising cost of college tuition. Less and less people can afford it (including those that qualify for student loans because they still have to pay for it sooner or later), meaning less highly educated people with which to compete with the world 3. The outsourcing of Middle Class jobs (the very jobs that the educated persons are vying for). Combining this with #2 above and you will have more people giving up their dreams of a higher education because it would just not be worth it anymore. Better to take your Lower Class service job servicing the Upper Class. The Middle Class is weakening. And we all know it is the Middle Class that fundamentally controls a country's economy (and otherwise). The Middle Class enjoys the happy combination of having greater monetary holdings/earnings than the Lower Class and greater numbers (total population) than the Upper Class The foregoing is subject to alteration or elaboratin solely on the author's (my) whim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgersling Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Also consider the the number of people who have been able to get into homes recently with 100% financing at very low rates. Should this outsourcing continue and we don't create more jobs, many could just end up walking away from their 100% financed homes. This would be trouble for the many homeowners counting on their home values rising and creating wealth for their retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtn_mouse Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 US education? Most Europeans have a better education that us. Here are four simple math questions most Europeans can answer, and most Americans can not: What is the log of 1000? What is the reciprical of 2? What is the inverse of 3? What is 4 factorial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 At least I can SPELL reciprocal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 US education? Most Europeans have a better education that us. Here are four simple math questions most Europeans can answer, and most Americans can not: What is the log of 1000? What is the reciprical of 2? What is the inverse of 3? What is 4 factorial? I am educated enough to believe this is not correct but I am willing to entertain the possibilty I may be incorrect. Source please. As far a education I remember my father telling me a story about a friend of his from Norway who learned the first year of calc and physic while in high school. My fatehr remembers being jealous of that fact. The twister is this guy was in high school during WW2! He moved to the US PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtn_mouse Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 My source is only from experience on the street asking people just to annoy them. And sorry Catturd, my spelling had been deterorating since hanging out on this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Schooled by Muffy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 My source is only from experience on the street asking people just to annoy them. And sorry Catturd, my spelling had been deterorating since hanging out on this site. HA ya'll can't make me conform so you are JOINING muffy in her BAD SPELLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 From the Willamette Week: "Forrester Research estimates that three million American jobs will be outsourced to other countries in the next 15 years, and with them $136 billion in wages." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtn_mouse Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Yeah, a friend of mine was ranting and raving on the phone last night. He called McAfee to renew his virus scan, and talked with someone in Manilla. Gave them his credit card number etc. What gives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Why are you all so surprised this is happening? I mean YAH, it's really stupid, and is gutting the middle class, but hey, it's capitalism. It's all about making the most money! This current fiscal pyramid scheme has the rich getting richer at least into the short term forseeable future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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