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Alyosha

How do you clip your belay biner to your harness?

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If you have a belay loop to clip into it will save some life and time sometimes more time since it is full strength and fine.

 

If you want to make a chest harness and attach the rope to your waist and chest harness it is possibly safer in some situations or more dangerous in others. But it takes a mere few seconds of time.

 

If you think a good harness attached correctly into a good system of anchors and solid rope is not good or are scared attach as much as you can and do not weight the anchor please.

 

Otherwise if you have a bomber anchor and rope setup clip into a good spot onto either or both spots. A good spot is a positively safe from fall to death point on your harness for my response. Something full strength and managed appropriately.

 

There are pros and cons when to tie in where on a harness. I just ignore the shit and d\t\ie in at the belay loop or waist loop. That does not include any other details that could possibly be encountered and it has worked fine for me for a long time.

 

In a nutshell- is this tie in loop full strength? If yes - fucking tie into it no problem.

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I was at Second Ascent the other day and saw a good diagram and visual explanation of why you shouldn't tie in to a biner that has been routed through the waist belt and the leg belt as suggested by some here.

 

It creates a three way load on the biner (as stated by some here). Biners are tested and designed for a two way load. The weakest part of the biner is the gate. When you use the biner in the way suggested by some here, and a leader falls (or any weight is placed on the rope) it could create a three way load (waist belt, leg webbing, and the rope). Should anyone of these three loads land on the gate, failure is POSSIBLE.

 

Why would anyone tie into a biner through their harness? I assume you mean clip in? As in glacier travel? In that case a lead fall shouldn't be generated anyway. But regardless, this is why I clip into two lockers instead of one when I am walking along on a glacier in my alpine bod harness. As a bonus, the gates placed down and out in this configuration are less likely to rattle into the open position. They would be more likely to do so when clipped into a belay loop for glacier travel, do to their increased freedom to flop around. I have absolutely no fear that the (relatively) minor loads generated in a crevasse fall would be enough to break two triaxially loaded petzl attaches, let alone one. 6kn, after all, is still quite a bit of force to generate on a harness in any real life glacier travel or expedition scenario.

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DT:

 

I guess that I did not state what i meant clearly. The topic is how one attaches the belay biner and belay device to the harness. Specifically questioning the way that some people clip the belay biner through the leg loops and the waist belt (mirroring the belay loop) as opposed to attaching the bely biner and device to the manufactured belay loop.

 

That clarified, I should have said:

 

I was at Second Ascent the other day and saw a good diagram and visual explanation oo why you shouldn't route a belay biner and device through the waist belt and the leg belt as suggested by some here.

 

It creates a three way load on the biner (as stated by some here). Biners are tested and designed for a two way load. The weakest part of the biner is the gate. When you use the biner in the way suggested by some here, and a leader falls (or any weight is placed on the rope) it could create a three way load (waist belt, leg webbing, and the rope). Should anyone of these three loads land on the gate, failure is POSSIBLE.

 

I do agree that clipping into a locking biner for glacier travel (should use two) that is clipped into the harness' belay loop is not going to generate enough force to USAULLY cause concern.

Edited by Rodchester

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Thanks for the clarification. I too agree that a belay loop ought to be used for belaying - for all the reasons folks have listed above. Gear failure is the least of my worries, however.

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Rodchester said:

 

I guess that I did not state what i meant clearly. The topic is how one attaches the belay biner and belay device to the harness. Specifically questioning the way that some people clip the belay biner through the leg loops and the waist belt (mirroring the belay loop) as opposed to attaching the bely biner and device to the manufactured belay loop.

 

That clarified, I should have said:

 

I was at Second Ascent the other day and saw a good diagram and visual explanation oo why you shouldn't route a belay biner and device through the waist belt and the leg belt as suggested by some here.

 

It creates a three way load on the biner (as stated by some here). Biners are tested and designed for a two way load. The weakest part of the biner is the gate. When you use the biner in the way suggested by some here, and a leader falls (or any weight is placed on the rope) it could create a three way load (waist belt, leg webbing, and the rope). Should anyone of these three loads land on the gate, failure is POSSIBLE.

 

I do agree that clipping into a locking biner for glacier travel (should use two) that is clipped into the harness' belay loop is not going to generate enough force to USAULLY cause concern.

 

While this is definitely a concern, I think that it's a pretty rare thing to load a big biner 3 ways. We climbed this way for DECADES before belay loops were invented. With a little care and diligence, this situation can largely be avoided. However, a belay loop does take one more potential problem out of the loop.

 

Dylan, why do you discount the possibility of taking a leader fall on a glacier? Granted, on low angle trade routes it's probably rare, but on many routes it's a very real possibility.

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Dylan, why do you discount the possibility of taking a leader fall on a glacier? Granted, on low angle trade routes it's probably rare, but on many routes it's a very real possibility.

 

The tying in system for glacier travel is designed to deal with crevasse falls and low-load sliding falls that can be arrested with self arrest or running belays. In none of these situations will loads be very high - or as high as they would be with a conventional lead fall in a vertical realm. Lets say I wanted to climb the N ridge of baker. Upon arriving at the steeper ice after a couple of hours of glacier travel, I would either completely re-rig my glacier travel tie-in system, or (more likely) I would allready be tied in (not clipped in) to the end of the rope, and for the glacier travel bits before and after the pitching out (leading) section, I would kiwi in towards my partner, clip into a hard knot, and add my prusiks. When steep ground presents itself, I can undo the knot-on-a-bight, and quickly undo my kiwis, while remaining tied in. On steep glacier routes, a lead fall could be possible, but the point I am trying to make is that it should not occur when you are tied in normal glacier-travel mode. On technical terrain, I switch the rope to employ it for steeper technical climbing.

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"While this is definitely a concern, I think that it's a pretty rare thing to load a big biner 3 ways. We climbed this way for DECADES before belay loops were invented."

 

However, the newer, huge 'biners, used for belaying, are much more prone to this loading than a simple oval, likely what you were using 20-30 years ago.

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AMGA recommends using the belay loop..... hence the name. These guys are serious climbers with serious info. If it works for them, it works for me.

 

ps for newbies AMGA is American Mountain Guides Assoc

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I'm not amazed at all, cat. This issue comes up often, for beginners at the crags. I was at Josh yesterday, with a group of quite experienced climbers (one was celebrating his 25th year at Josh), and there was considerable debate over these issues.

 

A related issue brought up was whether it is a good idea to rappel off the belay loop, and it seemed that the predominate thought was that one should not, but pass the biner through the two parts of the harness. Part of the logic was "it's a belay loop, not a rappel loop".

 

Personally, I think there is no difference. As for things that have been done for decades....if one is using decades-old equipment, designed to be used that way, fine. But if one is using modern equipment, one should use it the way it is designed to be used.

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Every day this thread continues I am amazed.

 

It's going to be some sort of measurement of your time at cc.com.

 

"I remember when the 'How do you clip your belay biner to your harness?' thread was only four pages long."

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AMGA recommends using the belay loop..... hence the name. These guys are serious climbers with serious info. If it works for them, it works for me.

 

ps for newbies AMGA is American Mountain Guides Assoc

 

wtf is a "serious" climber? That is a stupid assertion... rolleyes.gif

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