Another example of the problems of democracy

[Peter_Puget]

A Law?

[murraysovereign]

Hmmm... A group of people have suggested a different way of doing things. Their idea has been submitted to the appropriate body for discussion and debate, and if it's deemed worthy it will be introduced as proposed legislation. The proposed legislation will be discussed and debated, and then a vote will be held to determine if the legislation will be adopted. If enough people support the idea, it will pass; if enough people oppose the idea, it will be defeated. How, exactly, is this indicative of "the problems of democracy"?

[EWolfe]

 

So, now multi-culturalism is a problem of democracy?

[chelle]

Don't know if there should be a law to require state agencies to take Feng Shui into account in their buildings.

 

But I think that they should respect other people's views of Feng Shui. When I lived in CA there was a Chinese business owner in a town in Marin who was a firm believer in Feng Shui. His business was successful for many years until the city decided to plan a tree at the edge of sidewalk directly in front of his door. He begged and pleaded with them to move the tree 3 feet to either side of the door, fearing it would kill his business. They refused because it wasn't in their plan. Well the guy's business went down hill quickly after that and he firmly believed it was because the tree blocked all chi from flowing into his business. He tried many fixes and his business started picking up again. But after 6 months was not as profitable as it had been before the tree was planted.

 

I think he should have just replanted the tree one night and paid some fines.

[Peter_Puget]

"The structure of a building can affect a person's mood," the measure says, "which can influence a person's behavior, which, in turn, can determine the success of a person's personal and professional relationships." "We need to allow the expression of one's culture. That's why people come to California." .... "Feng shui is a very major cultural factor." ... "If there is harmony in the house, there is order in the nation. ... If there is order in the nation, there will be peace in the world."

 

MS - Simply put patent BS like this is a waste of time to debate. Esp in CA where there are many critical time sensitive issues that need to be dealt with. As a sidebar I wonder how many aditional $ would this add to constructions costs in a state in which affordable housing is almost extinct.

 

Imagine facing the building permit process for, say, adding another bathroom in the house, if this thing goes through.

 

 

What is even more odd is how the mighty Times doesn't comment on the introduction of such obviously religious considerations - I say superstitious considerations - into law. What if the directive applied to the application of directives of Leviticus or Hassidic custom?

 

MisterE - Multiculturalism? Surely you jest. If this passes you'd gotta keep that chi up as a matter of official public policy and law!

 

PP

[murraysovereign]

"The structure of a building can affect a person's mood," the measure says, "which can influence a person's behavior, which, in turn, can determine the success of a person's personal and professional relationships."

 

I don't see a problem with this statement. The Chinese call it "Feng Shui": we westerners give it names like "interior design", "landscaping", and "architecture".

 

And there's nothing in this article that says Feng Shui would become mandatory, as you seem to be implying: rather, they want the state building code amended to allow Feng Shui principles to be incorporated into designs. Why is that a problem? If you want to be able to use those principles in designing your home, but the building code won't allow it, maybe the building code could be revised. We allow for European design principles, why not Asian ones? That's all they're asking for here. Again, why do you feel this is a "problem with democracy"?

[EWolfe]

Exactly what I was thinking, Murray - thank you

[Lars]

Mr. Yee said: "We need to allow the expression of one's culture. That's why people come to California."

[Mtguide]

Nicely put,Murray.There's absolutely no question that these kinds of considerations aforethought are necessary,no matter what cultural terms they're framed in.The lack of this kind of thinking has left us with urban sprawl,strip malls,dying city centers racked with decaying ghettoes and no affordable housing,the bulldozing of once-healthy neighborhoods for misplaced freeways,demolition of valuable historic buildings and the rawness and hardness of cities like Oakland,Denver,Houston and E. St. Louis,cities that have grown completely out of control based on the technology of the automobile.This is supposed to be prosperity?Yeah,for the greedy few at the top,while all the rest are mired in the rat-race.Anyone who works in a cubicle and commutes knows what this means.These are indeed problems in our society,which is only just barely still recognizable as a tattered shadow of a democracy,if indeed it ever was.

 

Not that the societies in which feng shui originated were perfect,by any means.Chinese monarchies,iron rule, simply established centuries of relative civil stability that eventually produced the leisure classes who had the time and money for this kind of thing.These were feudal societies with plenty of brutally downtrodden peasantry.You can still see this desire for stability at all costs in the way the Chinese govern today.And I have a hard time seeing the feng shui in the destruction of ancient villages and the displacement of millions for the construction of the Three Gorges Dam,not to mention the strangling of the mighty Yangtze River and the inundation of its spectacular gorge.It's every bit the disaster of a Glen Canyon or Hetch Hetchy,and then some.

 

But the basic principles of Taoism and feng shui are nonetheless very,very ancient,and are rooted in very practical,simple and useful ideas of respect for both the natural environment and for the most basic human needs,and how to bring the two into harmony.Some utilization of nature is necessary for people to live well.How to do that without eventually destroying the land base that provides food,fuel and materials is an original fundamental concern of feng shui; the book Farmers of Forty Centuries talks about this.What we're now seeing is a much later development,so that most people know of it,or think of it as a sort of psuedo-superstition appplied to interior design,architecture,or landscape design.Hey,it sells books,little hexagonal mirrors and Chinese-coin windchimes,right?

 

Edited February 1, 2004 by Mtguide

[EWolfe]

MtnGuide:

 

Any considerations of natural influence bring us closer to a balanced existence. Those of more mature cultures (regardless of their foibles) are worth consideration.

 

 

 

Ah, yes. Finally on topic.

 

The 9 Star Ki is not real Feng Shui.

 

Black Hat Sect is the real thing, there are two books by Sarah Rossbach that are excellent for those interested:

 

The Chinese Art of Placement ISBN# 0-14-019353-7

Interior Design with Feng Shui ISBN# 0-14-019608-0

[catbirdseat]

Don't know if there should be a law to require state agencies to take Feng Shui into account in their buildings.

 

But I think that they should respect other people's views of Feng Shui. When I lived in CA there was a Chinese business owner in a town in Marin who was a firm believer in Feng Shui. His business was successful for many years until the city decided to plan a tree at the edge of sidewalk directly in front of his door. He begged and pleaded with them to move the tree 3 feet to either side of the door, fearing it would kill his business. They refused because it wasn't in their plan. Well the guy's business went down hill quickly after that and he firmly believed it was because the tree blocked all chi from flowing into his business. He tried many fixes and his business started picking up again. But after 6 months was not as profitable as it had been before the tree was planted.

 

I think he should have just replanted the tree one night and paid some fines.

You forgot to mention that the tree was right in front of his business sign. People couldn't read the name through the tree. But seriously, trees may look very nice, but they are bad for business.

[Dru]

trees bad. work for AlpineK

[Lars]

trees are aid

[AlpineK]

Trees are excellent for business!

[HRoark]

"The structure of a building can affect a person's mood," the measure says, "which can influence a person's behavior, which, in turn, can determine the success of a person's personal and professional relationships."

 

I don't see a problem with this statement. The Chinese call it "Feng Shui": we westerners give it names like "interior design", "landscaping", and "architecture".

 

And there's nothing in this article that says Feng Shui would become mandatory, as you seem to be implying: rather, they want the state building code amended to allow Feng Shui principles to be incorporated into designs. Why is that a problem? If you want to be able to use those principles in designing your home, but the building code won't allow it, maybe the building code could be revised. We allow for European design principles, why not Asian ones? That's all they're asking for here. Again, why do you feel this is a "problem with democracy"?

 

"We" don't do shit, Mr. Canadian. Getting a building permit in California is hard enough (8-12 months in some places) under the normal conditions.

[Peter_Puget]

Murray -

 

Check out my post. I will quote myself: ”Simply put patent BS like this is a waste of time to debate. Esp in CA where there are many critical time sensitive issues that need to be dealt with. As a sidebar I wonder how many additional $ would this add to constructions costs in a state in which affordable housing is almost extinct.

 

I ask that you note two things.

 

1 I directly answered your question as to why it was a problem with democracy. (Simply put patent BS like this is a waste of time to debate. Esp in CA where there are many critical time sensitive issues that need to be dealt with). Simply put it is difficult for democracies to filter out crap especially when it is possible for one group to force another group to pay the tab, thus much time is wasted on crap such as this. The pros and cons of FS are meaningless to me.

 

2 The remainder of my discussion regarding housing costs was clearly labeled as an aside and is only tangentially related to my main argument. Last week I tried to look up the resolution and could not find the exact wording but I did find a press release on the assemblyman’s website. It by the way was much more equivocal as to what the real impact would be in terms of potential increase in costs.

 

 

Mtnguide/MisterE –

 

“Nicely put,Murray.There's absolutely no ….[various stuff deleted]….. of a democracy,if indeed it ever was.”

 

I had the pleasure of working for a Chinese company for most of the 90’s. Once I mentioned that my mother gave me a book on Feng Shui. There was laughter all around. While agreeing that there were some good idea it was basically treated like a joke. Further I have had the pleasure of visiting many factories in china and do not believe that they are designed under the guiding principles of Feng Shui at least in matter that may cost $. Oddy the tenement towns surrounding these same factories seemed to be lacking in Feng Shui as well.

 

Free my Chi!

 

 

PP

[RobBob]

A tech rep once told me about a factory in China that he did equipment service for. He would fly all the way to China to work on some sophisticated milling equipment. Before walking into the factory, he would set off some firecrackers outside the front office. He said the people there really went for his 'appeal to the spirits' approach to troubleshooting.

[murraysovereign]

1 I directly answered your question as to why it was a problem with democracy. (Simply put patent BS like this is a waste of time to debate. Esp in CA where there are many critical time sensitive issues that need to be dealt with). Simply put it is difficult for democracies to filter out crap especially when it is possible for one group to force another group to pay the tab, thus much time is wasted on crap such as this. The pros and cons of FS are meaningless to me.

 

Simply put, then, it appears you have a problem with democracy because sometimes people in a democracy spend time talking about things you don't agree with, and you feel that's wrong. They should only be discussing the things you agree with, and everything else is "patent BS" or "crap". Put more simply still: it appears you have a problem with democracy because it actually tries to be democratic, and you don't believe it should.

 

And just as an aside: exactly what "critical, time sensitive issues" are currently before the California Building Standards Commission? Unless the building they occupy is presently being consumed by flames, I can't offhand imagine anything particularly "critical" or "time sensitive" that would preclude the Building Standards Commission from considering a proposal to amend the building code.

[Peter_Puget]

MS wrote –

 

Simply put, then, it appears you have a problem with democracy because sometimes people in a democracy spend time talking about things you don't agree with, and you feel that's wrong. They should only be discussing the things you agree with, and everything else is "patent BS" or "crap". Put more simply still: it appears you have a problem with democracy because it actually tries to be democratic, and you don't believe it should.

 

Now MS what you just wrote is (simply put) an example of patent BS or crap! It is nice how you create a false situation where I am advocating that the only issues discussed in a democracy should be in accordance with my personal preferences or for that matter that I have a “problem” with Democracy. I would also note that I explicitly stated that the validity of FS was not a concern to me with regard to my “problems with democracy” assertion – a point you conveniently ignore! Let me give you another example showing the error of your thought process: The internet!

 

The internet is a groovy thing however one of the problems with the internet is filtering thru all the crap to get the information you want. Let’s be clear - describing what I perceive as a problem with the internet does not make me against the internet. I love the internet!

 

The Federalists where not against democracy even thought in the Federalist Papers many potential problems with democracies were discussed. (Aside: Changes in technology may impact how we choose to operate as a democracy and create a whole new series of problems to be dealt with. I’ll help you out here Murray - think of hanging chads!)

 

 

And just as an aside: exactly what "critical, time sensitive issues" are currently before the California Building Standards Commission? Unless the building they occupy is presently being consumed by flames, I can't offhand imagine anything particularly "critical" or "time sensitive" that would preclude the Building Standards Commission from considering a proposal to amend the building code.

 

I am not familiar with the CBSC but an assemblyperson has not only a responsibility to his/her committee but to the state in general. Here are some burning issues facing CA that I believe should take precedence over this issue:

 

Workmen’s Compensation, Business Taxation, Education, Health Insurance, Levels of Taxation and Deficits.

 

Given the intractable nature of these issues I cans see why it would be appealing to avoid them all together and hope that thru the application of FS harmony can come to the commonwealth!

[Jim]

Simply put, Democracy is messy. It's full of crazy ideas left, right, and center. If it's a good idea it will hopefully float to the top, if not it will not see the light of day. It's alway interesting to see such trivial items held up as a "problem with democracy". The problem would be stifiling any debate to those items considered "worthwhile" by some.

[snoboy]

I am not familiar with the CBSC but an assemblyperson has not only a responsibility to his/her committee but to the state in general. Here are some burning issues facing CA that I believe should take precedence over this issue:

 

Workmen?s Compensation, Business Taxation, Education, Health Insurance, Levels of Taxation and Deficits.

 

Oh right, of course, you guys are still working on those things down there.

[snoboy]

I am not familiar with the CBSC but an assemblyperson has not only a responsibility to his/her committee but to the state in general. Here are some burning issues facing CA that I believe should take precedence over this issue:

 

Workmen's Compensation, Business Taxation, Education, Health Insurance, Levels of Taxation and Deficits.

 

Oh right, of course, you guys are still working on those things down there.

[Peter_Puget]

..right after we finish with those issues we'll jump on the even more intractable spanking issue.....

 

The Canadian Supreme Court, which presumably has nothing better to do, has just outlawed spanking in most circumstances:

[The law] exempts from criminal sanction only minor corrective force of a transitory and trifling nature. On the basis of current expert consensus, it does not apply to corporal punishment of children under two or teenagers. . . . Discipline by the use of objects or blows or slaps to the head is unreasonable."

 

The article further reveals that there are apparently professionals who spend time meditating on the question of whether the hand, or an implement such as a wooden spoon, should be used to spank your wayward child.

Personally, I'm a spanking agnostic. I have difficulty imagining hitting my children, but this may well be because I have no children. And while my parents, who made a point of reading the latest in child psychology studies, firmly believed that the principles thus obtained were best applied to the base of the spine with a sharp smack, I have, as yet, shown no marked tendency to turn into a serial killer. Even though they were not averse to the use of "objects or blows to the head", however unreasonable.

But whether or not spanking is good for children, I find it very hard indeed to imagine that this is a matter with which the federal government of a modern industrial state needs to involve itself. Not unless they're going to really get involved -- like sending someone to pick up the damn yardstick and chase your children around the house when you get tired.

[Jopa]

One of the many other problems with Representative Democracy:

 

[RobBob]

I have difficulty imagining hitting my children, but this may well be because I have no children.

 

I felt the same way until I had kids. I can't fathom that the Canadian government says it's okay spank two-and-under kids but not older. It's not until close to age three that the defiant, testing behavior that might deserve a spanking starts to rear its head (although I know the Mennonites and Amish spank very young kids).