To Bolt or Not to Bolt?

[AlpineK]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

I will bolt a giant bong to Muir Hut.

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Now there's a good idea.

[sayjay]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

I will bolt a giant bong to Muir Hut.

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DRU YOU ARE THE FUNNIEST HUMAN BEING ON THE FACE OF THIS PLANET!

[mattp]

But really -- a BONG? What will it be next, is he going to put ice in the thing? Where does it end? Shame.

[Crackbolter]

If you bolt a bong I will make a rock and ice greenhouse to grow the purply hairy stanky sticky doob.

[central_scrutinizer]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

I will bolt a giant bong to Muir Hut.

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This is the CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER..it is my responsibility to enforce all the laws that haven't yet been passed. It is also my responsibilitiy to alert each and every one of you to the potential consequences of various everyday activities you might be performing which could eventually lead to the collapse of our society as we know it. Our criminal institutions are full of little creeps like you who do wrong things....and many of them were driven to these crimes by a horrible force called INDEPENDENT THINKING.

 

Take for example, this little punk who, in an attempt to get a little attention with his terribly immature "jokes" about marijuana culture (not to mention his suggestion of degrading the Muir Hut by affixing drug paraphernalia), makes a mockery of those who support the transformation of the alpine arena into a safe and convenient playground for large, regimented groups of nerdy Mountaineers, by ensuring that one may find protection and rappel bolts at regular intervals(never separated from another bolt by more than an arm's length) on formerly adventurous and DANGEROUS mountaineering routes, such as that Ingal's Peak route. It is the intention of our bureaucratic institutions, not to mention the CEO's of financial/insurance megaconglomerates, to provide (for the safety and control of our public) such anchors, and eventually, to diminish the number of choices a climber must traditionally make (when to run it out, when to push on into heavy weather, etc.) by first providing a grid system of bolts on our mountaineering routes, and eventually, by requiring their use. Advances in technology will soon make enforcement (that's MY line of work) of these regulations quite practical, and cruel and inhuman punishments are being carefully described in tiny paragraphs so they won't conflict with the Constitution.

[Paul_detrick]

What good is taking out bolts if you don't do it right. Pudding time was choped last year, they could not get out the top bolts so they just smashed them down. How is this better for the rock? I like the job the person did on red m+ms, clean you should not bolt cracks, nobody should disaree with that. The rap station on Ingils is kool, it helps speed up all those steers, you make them do there achors there and you might as well go home, its a custer as it is. It's a fun climb, but my granma could lead it, the crack takes anything. Ok I fill better.

[Guest]

This is Gaper#1,

 

No more other side comments? mattp is silent now. Perhaps he sees I am correct or that his argument does not stand a good chance? No offense but my beliefs are solid and some are truly undeniable.

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken.

 

[ 04-24-2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Gaper_#1 ]

[Guest]

This is Gaper_#1,

 

Crackbolter, you do know what is wrong you just play dumb. I know who you are. I will pull all bolts on your routes if I wish. You want to start bolt wars you have stirred the wrong pot my friend.

 

I have not insulted you by calling you silly names. I am not ass I am Gaper_#1. Perhaps you need a lesson so you can be polite. You have subtley threatened me in the past. That is not to be taken lightly. You are as silly as your posts.

 

Dodging subjects-

 

How about refitting old hardware in the mountains where it needs it? Perhaps you are so lazy to do this no?

 

You try to play me like the bad fellow but I am more clear and clean than you.

 

I have contacted others and will target unnecessary routes after I return from Canada starting with lower icicle my friend. There are many with me. We do not need your bolts or books to make safe climbing. We have our self confidence and awareness for preservation and minimal impact for our mountains. We do not need more clip ups in the mountains. That only will invite others not with experience to get hurt. When they are ready then they should learn the right way. Failure and experience go a long way Mr Bolter.

 

While you build your trails and half heartedly invite me along at the last minute calling me names and such make sure you think about it when you meet me. Then I will call you on it and you will feel like you are silly as I certainly do think you are.

 

You are scared or not experienced or ready so you bolt. That is the truth. If I am scared or not ready or experienced I retreat and do not bolt, therefore leaving it for someone who is ready for the challenge.

 

Mr Bolter I do know how to chop and remove bolts and will do so if you continue to keep your feeble arguments up. Then we will see who is laughing no?

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken.

[erik]

one thing to say about ingalls...is that you can walk off the fawker quite easily......takes all of about 15 minutes......a little scramblin is required....last time i did that fun little peak on the walk off i removed about 5 lbs of sling material and some of it was tied off to some real alpine shit...

 

i think the bolts on the s face do create an issue as lazy people with little sense of adventure feel the need to rap, cuz it is so obvious laid out for them.....

 

i think nelson needs to put that correction in his update, that rapping that route is not the choice way to do things.....walk the off.......

 

kinda brings a point to me, that me friend wants to bivi on a super classic route for the bivi experience in the p.l. but after some thinking, i believe doing that creates hassles and even detracts from others experiences....granted we have every right in the world to bivi, but i think taking in consideration others is important too....all while preserving the integruity of the route and the stone......

 

so like the bolts on ingalls sure you can rap the route, but it detracts from it for others.....granted those beat ass met. rap anchors have violated the rock....so it is a double negative to use them.....

 

and th hear about how it invites people with less skill into the mtns and gives them the experience is bullshit.....get the skillz to apy the billz and then come out to the alpine play ground....

 

craggin is an excellent place to practice alpine skillz, it once was just that...now it is a complete sport of its own and i think that alot of skillz are not learned cause they are deemed less important to the crag experience, but any climber whom has tasted the alpine, always wants more.......yet since we did not practice important skillz at the crags, they are unprepared for the alpine....this is where bolts come into play.....much easier to come up to a stance and start clippin shit, as opposed to searching for placements and then making it work so you may have a safe and effiencet stance....

 

enjoy

erik

[Crackbolter]

By your name given Gaper, at the least, you admit to opening you big mouth plentiful. I will digress again and wait until we meet.

 

As for the rest of our fellow climbers, please further this discussion. I will value your opinion, I promise.

[Bronco]

quote:

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Originally posted by Crackbolter:

I am going to stir it up some more. Work is slow today and I am bored. Please entertain me. Who thinks that it is not okay to drill into fresh virgin granite void of cracks? This is a serious discussion so if you give me a B.S. answer I will be very angry and I will have to open a can of whoopass on you.

Also, Is it okay to drink

and climb?

Is it okay to puff on the kind green bud with lots of purply hairs and cough for ten minutes and then climb gripped?

 

I would like to hear REAL answers not just some jubberish! Behave!

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Crackbolter(lambone?):

 

1 - No, never ok to put bolts on virgin granite. If it is too scary, go climb something you can handle like I do. Now bring your "can of whoopass" over here so I can give you a spankin'.

 

2 - Drinking while climbing is up to you and your partners, until you need to be rescued or scraped out of a crater.

 

3 - smoking dope while climbing - see #2

[Guest]

Crackbolter. Everyone here is sick of your stupid bolting ethics discussion. Its all been covered before, so instead of playing dumb and going over it again go back and read old discussions. Try posting in a way that will enrich this site rather than shiting your twice shat shit all over it again and again.

[Rodchester]

I read back over these posts and I need to clarlify something about Ingals Peak.

 

Did someone bolt the route to protect it? Or are discussing the rap station bolts?

 

If they did it to protect the route, that is BS and even I agree they should be chopped.

 

Can someone clarify whether we are talking about Rap station bolts or pro bolts?

 

Thanks

 

And EriK...I do agree that a bivi for the sake of bivi on a classic route that would interfer with other climbers is not cool. There are too many other less traveled routes that would serve the purpose of the bivi experience without inteferring with others.

 

[ 04-24-2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: erik ]

[Dru]

After I bolt the bong to Muir Hut for good measure I will bolt Dan Larson to the summit of Rainier. I will bolt Ray Borbon to his avatar creating machine. I will bolt my lunch and run back to my computer.

 

Remember "bold" is not spelled with a t.

[jordop]

quote:

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Originally Posted by Dru:

My alpine problem bolts are on the Grimface to Matriarch traverse in Cathedral Park BC. There is a good topo in Beckey guide. What it doesnt show are about 10 bolts out of 14 on the route which are totally unnecessary. some are on 3rd/4th class slabs. Some are right next to good anchor cracks. There are 4 bolts on route which do make sense (two for aid and two at a rap station with no natural anchor) but the rest were placed by an unnamed Penticton guide so that he could guide the traverse without placing gear, as near as i can tell. if i ever go back there i will go with a wrench and remove the offending hangars and make sure the bolts are nailed in and unusable (7 hr hike is a long way to carry a crowbar).

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All you have to do is start talking really loud at Skaha about how you REALLY liked those bolts that someone put on the traverse, how they totally made that third class sketch fest go smooth. Sooner or later, somebody says, "glad you liked it." THAT'S when you use the crowbar!

 

[ 04-25-2002, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: jordop ]

[pope]

quote:

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Originally posted by Crackbolter:

 

Pope said:

"As an aside, have any of ya'll ever been on bloody fingers - 10A in the city of rocks, twenty feet to the right is a beautiful piece of face climbing put up by Jeff Lowe called New Toy. total of two bolts in 80 feet. Nobody climbs it - nobody, and why - it is too damn dangerous and a fall will kill ya, so I ask - has the first ascensionist done the climbing world justice - what gives him the right to dictate the "off limits - unless you have a death wish" mentality? Unfair and sad - on public land and a scarce resource as it is - and totally selfish IMHO - but who am I to say it...."

 

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Pope don't say that. Sir Donald say that.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Crackbolter:

 

I personally have climbed enough routes to know that at least more than once i've been 20, 30,40 or even as much as 50 feet off the ground and could have easily had a groundfall that was fatal.

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If you don't like this sort of thing, why have you put yourself in this position more than once? Who among us can't stand at the base of a route like New Toy and, without even putting foot to stone, notice that the path ahead is dangerous? Who among us would head up a route like that expecting an experience similar to an afternoon at Ronald McDonald playland? Who among us is not capable of finding tens or hundreds of heavily bolted routes within walking distance of New Toy? Routes like New Toy, which are often marked in the guide with skulls and such, will occasionally spit people off, and there will be injuries. And if the hazards were insidious, I'd recommend bolting every one of these routes. The reality is that each of us has a choice to make, and the choice is made with plenty of information. Long live choice.

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by pope:

Long live choice.[/QB]

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LONG LIVE CHOICE!!

 

and self reliance

[Crackbolter]

I am very pleased with the results of this discussion... This is what I gather:

 

It seems that there are two groups of people that we are dealing with. The one side likes the use of bolts for safety and convenience and is not overly concerned with how many bolts are placed as long as the bolter knows what he/she is doing. Luckily for us, most F/A folks know what they are doing. They recieve much scrutiny when they are starting their career as a F/A. They also don't seem to care too much when someone who is not a F/A gives them scrutiny because typicially they want someone experienced to give them criticism.

 

The other side are like republicans, they just want everyone to stick their nose into it and to chop bolts for their own likings, not because there is a consensus on how the route was drilled. These people want the F/A's to be regulated on how they put up a route by people who have never drilled into rock or who have no idea what is involve in putting up a route. They don't consider the countless hours it took them to mark the route and scrub the line and the thought that is involved in putting in a bolt where the crack will not hold gear very well but might take a piton (which is just a detrimental as a bolt).

 

So my opinion is to remove all the hardware and make everyone climb what is naturally protectable like Fred Becky pioneered. I would be happy with that because it would divide the line between the bold, the not so bold and the crazy. Unfortunately, what I want will never happen so I have to put up with jackasses chopping bolts and making the situation worse. Maybe we should have stronger regulation in our wilderness areas (just keep the gas and electricity for our stoves and headlamps). What about designated non wilderness areas? Is it still okay to drill the shit out of everything and then have choppers chop the unnecessary bolts?

 

So Asshole Gaper has a point, there are prople who bolt too much (L.W.) but not very many. And hopefully the folks that frollick in the wilderness areas will keep an eye out for those folks and give them the boot when we see them screwing things up. Most of the new bolters are drilling bolts for the safety other people, not as much for themselves. Look back when the first drillers were drilling. Was there any rhyme or reason? My guess is that there is more now than there ever was. Just more folks climbing and more folks drilling. Enough talk, I am finished with this subject. Thanks for the responses and opinions. Keep on exploring!

[AlpineK]

I'm mostly interested in having a bong bolted to Muir hut. I haven't paid a lot of attention to the rest of the big debate.

 

If someone did bolt the standard route on Ingalls (is this true?); I'm down with chopping it. If it gets bolted again then chop it again. I don't agree with Mattp's, "let it be," phiosophy; I'm more in tune with Gaper #1.

 

I should add that I have no interest in seeing anything chopped at Frenchy gully or Exit 38. These places were choss piles before bolts. I have no problem with the bolting in D town since the people behind it seem to know what they're doing. However I'm for bolting wars when it comes to the Cascades, Castle Rock, and to a lesser degree Index and the Icicle.

 

I don't know if that makes any sense, but thats how I see it.

[Dru]

The only fun more fun than a bolt war is debating if chalk is aid or if a yoyo constitues a valid free ascent

[Dru]

I read in Weekly World news once about some guy that had his nipples transplanted to his buttocks.

[erik]

i also retract one statement i made yesterday about jiom nelson needing to correct the slect book on the descent to ingalls peaks....he does list the walk off....i didnt have the book in front of me, but i checked when i went home.

[mattp]

So far, I agree with Crackbolter that this has been a good discussion. Although perhaps there have been few new points made here, we have been able to make those same old tire arguments without falling into the name-calling and rhetoric that is usually associated with this topic and it seems that we have had general agreement on most points (certainly far from all) about what is and isn't appropriate bolting so that a discussion of how or whether to undertake "restoration" efforts can proceed with that as a basis. If that is to be the discussion, I would like to note that I was misquoted as saying "let it be;" I have been urging restraint and civility but I have not advocated passivity.

 

I'm sorry to disappoint you, Gaper, but I saw no need to respond when you and I had both made our points and it appeared to me that further response was only going to be more restatement of the same ideas. I had already stated that I agreed with most of what you were suggesting about bolters, bolting, and many related issues, but I simply disagree on certain tactical questions.

[Cobra]

This is Cobra. Since moderators have removed Gaper_#1's ability to rationally argue here I have come back as Cobra. Gaper_#1 is dead due to Jon or Tim. My guess is Jon is the culprit.

 

Moderators bite it you bolt clipping mongers. How can rational debates occur if the moderators are being like this?

[Peter_Puget]

Ole Peter goes away for two days and misses out on a new thread on a new subject.

 

Not to imitate my old friends Pope and Dwayner but let me tell you how it is:

 

Bolting cracks! It’s a no no guys. Forgetting all so-called climbing traditions- it’s a no no because “climbers” have traditionally made representations to land managers that the use of bolts is/should be limited to situations where natural pro is unavailable. Now I can see where there couldbe large areas of gray but in 99% of the cases this is not the case. If unnecessary bolts were placed on Ingalls,I say get rid of them. The acceptance of truly unnecessary bolts merely shows that climbers cannot be self-regulating or are simply dishonest in their dealings with land managers. In any case it is an invitation to more regualtion. AND provides ammunition to those against climbing. I should say that I consider some fixed anchors as exceptions to this rule as do many land managers. For example,as a means to reduce erosion see fixed rappell points as a solution. Another example would be the rappel anchors off many popular alpine peaks. Think Prussick. A series of ugly slings. Wouldn’t a series of 1/2” SS anchors that would be discrete as well as lasting 30 years be preferable? I say yes.

 

I know I have said this many times but AlpineK have you talked to those bad boys at Index or the Icicle. And if not, have you made attempts to?

 

Dru -

There is a special equation useful for determining whether or not a yo-yo is a valid ascent. So much like bolting it all depends.

 

Peter