If you like breathing air

[olyclimber]

then you might want to check this out:

Crimes Against Nature

Environmentalists shouldn't have any say in energy policy, right? I mean, isn't pollution just an urban legend?

On a lighter note, I can't believe the Kennedys are selling that house. It ought to be a museum.

 

[EWolfe]

Scary:

 

"Cheney’s task force, which rewrote the energy laws in this country, met for 106 days; they didn’t meet with a single environmental group. They had 709 meetings, all of them with industry. And the energy policy came out of those meetings, behind closed doors, came from cabinet officials who are all from the energy industry"

[Scott_J]

On a lighter note, I can't believe the Kennedys are selling that house. It ought to be a museum.

FUCK THE LIBERAL ASS KENNEDYS. THE SOONER THEY GET OUT OF AMERICAN POLITICS THE BETTER FOR THEM AND US. MAYBE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE SUCH BAD LUCK IF THEY GOT OUT. MY CUBAN FRIENDS DON'T LIKE THE KENNEDYS EITHER.

[catbirdseat]

MisterE said:

Scary:

 

"Cheney’s task force, which rewrote the energy laws in this country, met for 106 days; they didn’t meet with a single environmental group. They had 709 meetings, all of them with industry. And the energy policy came out of those meetings, behind closed doors, came from cabinet officials who are all from the energy industry"

That's why the Dems are putting on a good old fashioned filibuster. The worst provision is one which gives blanket protection from lawsuits to gasoline manufacturers who use MTBE in their formulations. MTBE contaminates water and it's strong smell and taste renders the water undrinkable.

[chelle]

catbirdseat said:

MisterE said:

Scary:

 

"Cheney’s task force, which rewrote the energy laws in this country, met for 106 days; they didn’t meet with a single environmental group. They had 709 meetings, all of them with industry. And the energy policy came out of those meetings, behind closed doors, came from cabinet officials who are all from the energy industry"

That's why the Dems are putting on a good old fashioned filibuster. The worst provision is one which gives blanket protection from lawsuits to gasoline manufacturers who use MTBE in their formulations. MTBE contaminates water and it's strong smell and taste renders the water undrinkable.

 

MTBE is also being implicated in increased cancers and other health problems. It's a poison that was poorly researched when it was rushed to implementation as a necessary addidtive to gas in areas with poor air quality.

 

This is one more blatant attempt to help big business at the expense of joe/jane public. I give kudos to John McCain and other republicans who oppose the bill and supported the filibuster. Democrats who support such a bad piece of legislation because their constituents grow corn should be ashamed IMO.

[pope]

The Rolling Stone article .

[EWolfe]

I think that RK, jr is a brave man for his position in the light of the exposure his family gets.

[olyclimber]

sisu_suomi said:

On a lighter note, I can't believe the Kennedys are selling that house. It ought to be a museum.

FUCK THE LIBERAL ASS KENNEDYS. THE SOONER THEY GET OUT OF AMERICAN POLITICS THE BETTER FOR THEM AND US. MAYBE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE SUCH BAD LUCK IF THEY GOT OUT. MY CUBAN FRIENDS DON'T LIKE THE KENNEDYS EITHER.

 

Ya...your cuban friends must be lovin the Republicans. Anything to keep the cost of Cuban cigar high, while the rest of the Cuban people suffer. Stick your head back in your ass, I've heard enough. You must be one of those morons who pines for the Reagen era.

[Fairweather]

catbirdseat said:

MisterE said:

Scary:

 

"Cheney’s task force, which rewrote the energy laws in this country, met for 106 days; they didn’t meet with a single environmental group. They had 709 meetings, all of them with industry. And the energy policy came out of those meetings, behind closed doors, came from cabinet officials who are all from the energy industry"

That's why the Dems are putting on a good old fashioned filibuster. The worst provision is one which gives blanket protection from lawsuits to gasoline manufacturers who use MTBE in their formulations. MTBE contaminates water and it's strong smell and taste renders the water undrinkable.

 

MTBE, forced upon the public by ENVIRONMENTALISTS. The same lame-asses who are now trying to sue the manufacturers. A great example of what happens when we let environmental(ist) hysteria get in front of science.

 

Also, Catbird, from what I understand this energy bill is facing bi-partisan opposition. Mcain ® is against it, while Dashle (D) is for it. Nice try though.

 

And as for Cheyney's task force, well, that kind of reminds us of when Hillary's health-care reform task force met in secret for over a year without inviting businesses who were likely going to be asked to foot the bill.

[EWolfe]

Fairweather said:

And as for Cheyney's task force, well, that kind of reminds us of when Hillary's health-care reform task force met in secret for over a year without inviting businesses who were likely going to be asked to foot the bill.

 

Businesses seem to have a different, alternative incentive when it comes to healthcare?

 

There is no reason to disinclude the people that are watchdogs for us all, regardless of their foibles.

 

[olyclimber]

Fairweather said:

catbirdseat said:

MisterE said:

Scary:

 

"Cheney’s task force, which rewrote the energy laws in this country, met for 106 days; they didn’t meet with a single environmental group. They had 709 meetings, all of them with industry. And the energy policy came out of those meetings, behind closed doors, came from cabinet officials who are all from the energy industry"

That's why the Dems are putting on a good old fashioned filibuster. The worst provision is one which gives blanket protection from lawsuits to gasoline manufacturers who use MTBE in their formulations. MTBE contaminates water and it's strong smell and taste renders the water undrinkable.

 

MTBE, forced upon the public by ENVIRONMENTALISTS. The same lame-asses who are now trying to sue the manufacturers. A great example of what happens when we let environmental(ist) hysteria get in front of science.

 

Also, Catbird, from what I understand this energy bill is facing bi-partisan opposition. Mcain ® is against it, while Dashle (D) is for it. Nice try though.

 

And as for Cheyney's task force, well, that kind of reminds us of when Hillary's health-care reform task force met in secret for over a year without inviting businesses who were likely going to be asked to foot the bill.

 

Brilliant Fairweather. Next you're going to be telling us that people who actually give a fuck about the environment have no business setting energy policy? And you think that people who are concerned about the environment are lame assed? Suck my exhaust pipe asswipe. When you wake up from your pipe dream you can die with the rest of us on this shit hole planet you and your Republican friends are fouling. Oh ya....I'm a liberal, I'm supposed to be nice. Have a nice day!

[Fairweather]

olyclimber said:

Fairweather said:

catbirdseat said:

MisterE said:

Scary:

 

"Cheney’s task force, which rewrote the energy laws in this country, met for 106 days; they didn’t meet with a single environmental group. They had 709 meetings, all of them with industry. And the energy policy came out of those meetings, behind closed doors, came from cabinet officials who are all from the energy industry"

That's why the Dems are putting on a good old fashioned filibuster. The worst provision is one which gives blanket protection from lawsuits to gasoline manufacturers who use MTBE in their formulations. MTBE contaminates water and it's strong smell and taste renders the water undrinkable.

 

MTBE, forced upon the public by ENVIRONMENTALISTS. The same lame-asses who are now trying to sue the manufacturers. A great example of what happens when we let environmental(ist) hysteria get in front of science.

 

Also, Catbird, from what I understand this energy bill is facing bi-partisan opposition. Mcain ® is against it, while Dashle (D) is for it. Nice try though.

 

And as for Cheyney's task force, well, that kind of reminds us of when Hillary's health-care reform task force met in secret for over a year without inviting businesses who were likely going to be asked to foot the bill.

 

Brilliant Fairweather. Next you're going to be telling us that people who actually give a fuck about the environment have no business setting energy policy? And you think that people who are concerned about the environment are lame assed? Suck my exhaust pipe asswipe. When you wake up from your pipe dream you can die with the rest of us on this shit hole planet you and your Republican friends are fouling. Oh ya....I'm a liberal, I'm supposed to be nice. Have a nice day!

 

I noticed you didn't address any of my points. You sound like nothing more than a leftover 60's radical prick. Go spank yourself. Oh yea, if you can't tolerate opposing points of view in spray, don't post your shit to begin with ya liberal pussy.

Edited November 23, 2003 by Fairweather

[Fairweather]

Some interesting facts about MTBE. Would someone please explain why the manufacturers of this EPA mandated additive should be exposed to unlimited lawsuits? Could it be that the Trial Lawyers Association has the Dem's in their pocket?

 

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/192.html

 

Olyclimber,

 

If you choose to respond, please spare me the Greenpeace/EarthFirst hysteria junk mail recital.

[EWolfe]

Fairweather said:

Some interesting facts about MTBE. Would someone please explain why the manufacturers of this EPA mandated additive should be exposed to unlimited lawsuits?

 

Because they didn't figure out that ethanol was safer, even with their army of chemists? Or was that just the more profitable solution?

 

Plus cCalifornia thinks everything causes cancer.

[catbirdseat]

MTBE wasn't forced on anybody. If I'm not mistaken, it was ARCO that first pioneered its use. MTBE can be made cheaply from butylene, a byproduct of refining and methanol, produced from natural gas. It reduces carbon monoxide and increases octane rating. It has a very good toxicity profile. It is more miscible with gasoline than ethanol. It has few problems with water absorption in tanks. It doesn't easily form explosive peroxides on exposure to air. There are a lot of good things going for MTBE.

 

The problem with it is that it is just soluble enough in water that when gasoline containing it leaks into the ground the MTBE dissolves in the water and migrates. It has a very strong and distinctive taste, such that even minute amounts can be detected. If it weren't for underground tank leakage we wouldn't have a problem. The gasoline refiners haven't done enough to monitor their retailers for storage safety. They should be held responsible.

[olyclimber]

Fairweather said:

I noticed you didn't address any of my points. You sound like nothing more than a leftover 60's radical prick. Go spank yourself. Oh yea, if you can't tolerate opposing points of view in spray, don't post your shit to begin with ya liberal pussy.

 

I would have addressed your points on the article, but you had none. But please, continue to post your BS spray. Cheney needs your support in fouling the nest.

[catbirdseat]

Fairweather said:

Some interesting facts about MTBE. Would someone please explain why the manufacturers of this EPA mandated additive should be exposed to unlimited lawsuits? Could it be that the Trial Lawyers Association has the Dem's in their pocket?

 

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/192.html

 

Olyclimber,

 

If you choose to respond, please spare me the Greenpeace/EarthFirst hysteria junk mail recital.

Fairweather, the EPA did not mandate MTBE specifically. They mandated oxygenates. It was left to the refiners which oxygenates to use. In 1990, the choice was MTBE, methanol or ethanol. A formulation containing 15% methanol and 85% gasoline was set as the standard for CO emissions. If you could show that your MTBE or other formulation was as good or better, you could use it.

 

Locally, I believe ethanol is what is being used. In LA and other places with a lot of photochemically induced smog, they tend to use MTBE because the emissions contain fewer photochemically reactive species than does ethanol. I was involved in the testing of various alternative formulations in 1990 while at ARCO. My recollection was that MTBE formulations performed as well or better than 15% methanol formulations. I don't recall testing ethanol formulations. Ethanol is more expensive than either MTBE or methanol, because it comes from corn. Ethanol and methanol have the problem that water from the air tends to dissolve in it. When it is mixed with gasoline, the water separates. This problem can be overcome through careful handling.

[chelle]

MisterE - I think that the state currently suing the manufacturers/users of MTBE is New Hampshire or Vermont.

 

And Catbird - leaking tanks are one issue that may have poisoned ground water, but small watercrafts on lakes are one of the primary reasons that many of the lakes in CA are contaminated. Their 2-stroke engines are not efficient at burning gas and it leaks into the water. A few years ago when several lakes in CA that were primarily used as drinking water storage tried to ban use of these jetskis and similar watercraft on the lakes (some of them not yet contaminated) there was outrage from the user communities and industry.

[catbirdseat]

ehmmic said:

MisterE - I think that the state currently suing the manufacturers/users of MTBE is New Hampshire or Vermont.

 

And Catbird - leaking tanks are one issue that may have poisoned ground water, but small watercrafts on lakes are one of the primary reasons that many of the lakes in CA are contaminated. Their 2-stroke engines are not efficient at burning gas and it leaks into the water. A few years ago when several lakes in CA that were primarily used as drinking water storage tried to ban use of these jetskis and similar watercraft on the lakes (some of them not yet contaminated) there was outrage from the user communities and industry.

I believe Lake Tahoe was one of them. It is really tragic, because it was avoidable. California banned MTBE effective last year, but Gov. Davis delayed the ban until Jan 2004. Nonetheless most refiners have already switched to ethanol.

[Fairweather]

Don't 2-stroke engines still use lead-containing additives in the oil mix?

[lummox]

Fairweather said:

Don't 2-stroke engines still use lead-containing additives in the oil mix?

rumor-mongers are suck.

[AlpineK]

Fairweather said:

Don't 2-stroke engines still use lead-containing additives in the oil mix?

 

I sure hope not.

[Dan_Harris]

catbirdseat said:

ehmmic said:

MisterE - I think that the state currently suing the manufacturers/users of MTBE is New Hampshire or Vermont.

 

And Catbird - leaking tanks are one issue that may have poisoned ground water, but small watercrafts on lakes are one of the primary reasons that many of the lakes in CA are contaminated. Their 2-stroke engines are not efficient at burning gas and it leaks into the water. A few years ago when several lakes in CA that were primarily used as drinking water storage tried to ban use of these jetskis and similar watercraft on the lakes (some of them not yet contaminated) there was outrage from the user communities and industry.

I believe Lake Tahoe was one of them. It is really tragic, because it was avoidable. California banned MTBE effective last year, but Gov. Davis delayed the ban until Jan 2004. Nonetheless most refiners have already switched to ethanol.

Even before the state banned MTBE, some of the lakes around here that are used for drinking water made you buy the MTBE free fuel at the lake. All gas containers and watercraft fuel tanks were checked at the lake entrance to make sure they were empty.

[catbirdseat]

That was very smart of them.

[EWolfe]

I believe that 2-stroke engines do more than just "leak" gas. Don't they actually eject up to 30% of the fuel/oil mix in the exhaust?