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lummox

debate fodder: lots of new climbers

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You know, Scott, I was writing a longer reply in response to your stupidity, but then I realized that it wasn't worth my time.

 

PS how is climbing 'conquering' anything? No, climbing doesn't bring us anything of value, and yes, it's fundamentally dangerous, but don't even begin to think that you can speak for my motivations. Fuck off.

 

PPS snaf.gif

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joe_average said:

You know, Scott, I was writing a longer reply in response to your stupidity, but then I realized that it wasn't worth my time.

well given your other posts on this thread, i am sure it is filled with all the vulgar words of the vernacular you could think of and calling me an idiot etc. i'm sure it was brilliant. i am sorry we wont be able to see it.

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Fuck off.

 

well cracked, one might, instead of saying what you said, be enticed to state his rationale for climbing to discredit my statement. instead, you just look defensive. why are you so angered by what i have to say? cheer up. its just a BBS. bigdrink.gif

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Bouldering is fun fellas!!!!

 

no bolts, lots of falling, flappers...........good times....

 

Coming soon to a talus field near you, the CC.COM Boulderfest 2004!

 

I better get on this and start planning it with the pimp daddy himself Timmay

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Distel32 said:

Bouldering is fun fellas!!!!

 

no bolts, lots of falling, flappers...........good times....

 

Coming soon to a talus field near you, the CC.COM Boulderfest 2004!

 

I better get on this and start planning it with the pimp daddy himself Timmay

 

i'm down distel! rockband.gifbigdrink.gif

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Yes, bouldering is guilt-free because there are no bolts (though some whoescale slaugher is involved in modifying the landing zones and scrubbing moss from those filthy western Washington boulders, isn't it?).

 

Just out of curiosity, what is the "state of the sport." I keep hearing about the troops of the pad people, but I've never run into them. Are the numbers increasing? Is there a bouldering area near Seattle where there are bunches of climbers like there are at Exit 38?

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scott_harpell said:

Fuck off.

 

well cracked, one might, instead of saying what you said, be enticed to state his rationale for climbing to discredit my statement. instead, you just look defensive. why are you so angered by what i have to say? cheer up. its just a BBS. bigdrink.gif

Scott, you indirectly insult most of the people on this board by believing that you can explain their motivations in a most condescending manner. Once again, speak for yourself, not for me. Why I climb? Fuck, because it's fun, plain and simple. I'm wondering where your 'conquering' bullshit came from. How does one 'conquer' a hunk of rock? What annoys me is your condescension, the fact that you think you know who I am, what I do, why I do it, and whatever you do is pure and perfect.

 

'Lighten up'? You're the one who brought religion into the debate, with your pious whining about your remorse for lifting biners, yet in the same breath chastising the rest of us for our 'destructive' behaviors. Pathetic.

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scott_harpell said:

perhaps this is the problem. we as humans cannot accept the fact that we are limited. What have we done to obstacles in the past? Natives? Naughty rivers? why, in this postmodern world should the vertical realm be any different. Conquer at any cost is the one statement that has defined our species and i guess i am naieve to assume that you shit flingers can see your destructive deeply seeded need to conquer anything and everything just because you can. no longer do we do these thigns for money or power, but the need to ocnquer is so permeated in our species that we do it mechanically without any reason. in the in the in the 1800's it was to gain money and power. Now the rational is 'cause its there man.' wazzup.gif

I dunno, Matt, I interpret this as he was aiming it towards climbers, ie, me. Maybe I'm way off base, but I doubt it.

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joe_average said:

scott_harpell said:

Fuck off.

 

well cracked, one might, instead of saying what you said, be enticed to state his rationale for climbing to discredit my statement. instead, you just look defensive. why are you so angered by what i have to say? cheer up. its just a BBS. bigdrink.gif

Scott, you indirectly insult most of the people on this board by believing that you can explain their motivations in a most condescending manner. Once again, speak for yourself, not for me. Why I climb? Fuck, because it's fun, plain and simple. I'm wondering where your 'conquering' bullshit came from. How does one 'conquer' a hunk of rock? What annoys me is your condescension, the fact that you think you know who I am, what I do, why I do it, and whatever you do is pure and perfect.

 

'Lighten up'? You're the one who brought religion into the debate, with your pious whining about your remorse for lifting biners, yet in the same breath chastising the rest of us for our 'destructive' behaviors. Pathetic.

 

who brought in religion? certainly not I. i am truly sorry if you are offended but again that is the nature of debate. wave.gif

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Matt-

 

Not really close to seattle, if you go to squamish on a weekend during the summer you will see lots of people just living in the chief campground all summer bouldering. the forest is busy every weekend. If you go up during the week though it is fairly empty, and if you go during the winter you'll be by yourself in perfect sending temps!

 

I'll post some pictures from the Bishop campground after these next two trips down. It will be busy down there for the holidays.

 

Yeah landing zones I think are damaged more than just cleaning the moss off. But most of the problems we cleaned up at goldbar were overhanging, thus the landings were talus and we actually didn't hurt any vegetation. And some of the boulders are in a clearcut, so you know.

 

Places like Joe's Valley though trails are a huge deal because of cryptogamic (sp?) soil which takes thousands of years to grow and can be destroyed by stepping on it. I'm sure you now about that though.

 

mmmmmmm buttermilks in one week........... rockband.gif

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pope said:

slaphappy said:

 

Pope,

I commend your effort at Secret Dome. It must have been difficult to even hang on hooks and place the bolts on lead. Although judging from your past and present opinions, wouldn't it have been better left as a top rope? It is a variation and a bit of a squeeze job.

 

The bolt on Carnival is necessary and accurately placed. Using this as an example, can you see how a rappel placed bolt with an electric drill can be viewed as constructive?

 

Kudos to a fairly civil debate bigdrink.gif

 

The Secret Dome climb would best be left as a top-rope, if it had started that way. I clipped on some wire brushes and a hand drill and just started climbing. The result is a fair climb, and the only true lead-established route there.

 

The bolt by Carnival Crack was initially drilled on lead, but the bit I'd purchased didn't truly match the bolt size I had with me (not my fault). Because it was the only pro for the crux, and since if the bolt failed it would be really terrible, I decided to borrow a power drill and place a 1/2" bolt.

 

A few people do establish routes on rap and do a nice job, and I've agreed with that point many times. But in general, too many rap-bolted routes turn out to be low-adventure, low challenge, unaesthetic bolt trails. If we were to agree that placing bolts should be done on the lead, and if we could get everybody on board, a crisis like what we witnessed in Vantage would never happen again.

 

Could it not be seen from the ground that the variation at Secret Dome would be better suited as a top-rope? I do not subscribe to the idea that just because a bolted crag climb was put up on lead that it is a more "valid" route. It really only means more to the FA party. Nor from my experience (and yes, I do have some) does it produce a "better" or more aesthetic route, often times quite the contrary.

 

I do however agree that the amount of new routes being established and those establishing them would diminish drasticly if they were only being developed on lead. Rap bolted routes with a power drill can be put up at a staggering rate. Bolting by hand on lead can be terrifying and time consuming. Ahhh consume...bigdrink.gif

 

gotta love that Molly...

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Slappy-

Yes, rap bolted sport climbs established with a power drill can be set at an alarming rate, but I don't think GOOD climbs can be set via rappel much faster than one can make a first ascent from the ground up. I don't have any experience with one-pitch crags, but on the bigger climbs, at least, it takes days and days to clean a line, TR and pre-inspect it, and properly equip it with bolts and chains. And assuming unlimited battery power or one of the newer drills that gets a zillion holes to a charge, the ground-up first ascent might well go much faster (though I don't think that the climbs would come out as well). Even on a sport-crag, I would guess that one should not try to do much more than a pitch a day -- maybe two on a good day -- if they are really trying to do a good job of it. And this speedy route development assums one is setting a route comfortably below their limit where working the moves is not an issue. (Tthough not too far below their limit -- I maintain that a 5.12 climber is probably not qualified to put up a 5.6 climb because they may not be able to tell where the real 5.6 challenges and the relevant "natural weaknesses" lie.) What do you think?

 

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Matt-

I do agree. I guess I was making more of a comparison to 1-pitch lines, like those found at Frenchman's, bolted by hand versus a power drill. The logistics become increasingly more difficult the longer the route is. Getting to the top, rapping in, and rapping off or ascending back up can easily leave very little time for any actual work on the route. It can certainly become a HUGE effort. In this circumstance the actual drilling really doesn't take that much time, particularly if done with a power drill.

 

Ground up on routes that are long multi-pitch endeavors may go faster but how much "cleaning" is actually done on lead? I would say the very minimal amount possible to ascend the line. This, in my opinion, is one of many reasons why the end result of a ground up effort rarely climbs as well as a top down route. It is very difficult to go back and clean a new route that has already been climbed ground up, kinda anti-climactic.

 

In fact, I would say cleaning continuous crack systems may take the longest of all.

 

I definately agree that 5.12 climbers "aren't qualified" to put up 5.6 routes. The end result is rarely a climb that can be safely enjoyed by a 5.6 or 5.7 leader.

 

 

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Ground-up efforts suffer from more problems than just the lack of cleaning, in my mind. True, I have dug out some cracks on rappel that I would have completely neglected in favor of bolted face climbing had I been leading something and when I've climbed from the ground up a first ascent I have left cracks and faces uncleaned, but one of the big problems with ground-up climbing is that you can't see where all the ledges is. When you look down a route, you can often see a lot more about what is going on. And we have talked in the past about how the leader who may be fearing for their well-being doesn't have the time or inclination to think about things the same way the guy hanging on a top-rope may.

 

My one or possibly two pitch a day limit stems not just from the logistical issue of how many hours there are in a day, though. I think it also has to do with the amount of actual care that should go into placing bolts - and I just don't think most of us are good for more than that before we start doing a poor job of it.

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I have actually found that marking bolt placements, leaving and coming back another day, and re-checking my marks usually ends up with the best result. I sometimes regret hasty decisions.

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Pretty awesome to see a controversial issue run its course without moderators jumping in to delete the insults (and even the opinions with which they happen to disagree). This thread has it all: thoughtful discussion, juvenile insults, obscene language, polite discourse, hyperbolic distortion of the truth, photos of Molly Ringwald.....all of the elements that never would have survived in a heavily edited forum. If this thing had been started in the New Rock Climbing Forum, it never would have left the ground.

 

For the moment (and I don't know if it will last), it seems like the good old days of CC.com are back. Nobody got their feelings hurt, and I managed to throw away hours of what could have been productive time. Awesome! And I for one put just as much effort into trying to understand the perspectives offered by others as I did trying to forward the principles in which I believe.

 

Something to think about is this: exactly what sort of poor behavior did Dwayner display that was not displayed in this thread to the nth degree? Isn't it time to bring good ol' Dwayner back? I think we owe it to ourselves.

 

To the truth! bigdrink.gif

To free discourse! bigdrink.gif

To our superb moderators for allowing this thread to go whichever way the wind blew! bigdrink.gif

To the swift return of Dwayner! bigdrink.gif

To Molly! bigdrink.gif

To Pyramid's Snow Cap Ale! bigdrink.gif

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olyclimber said:

Can you use the same argument (bolting makes climbing falsely easier, and lowers standards of climbing) on trails?

Should we get rid of all trails because they making traveling in the Parks and Wilderness areas easier,more accessible, and just gumming up these areas with newbies who have no business being there? Huh? Huh? Answer! yellaf.gif

Not really so yellaf.gif. They are doing this on the Middle Fork of the Snoqualmie River. They're removing the road because it makes it too easy to get in there.

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Found this cool trip report today on rec.climbing. Check it out.

 

It's a good read about someone's desire to send a difficult heady route. Something tells me that were there a few more bolts placed on this route it would be a whole different story, or there wouldn't even be a story.

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chucK said:

Found this cool trip report today on rec.climbing. Check it out.

 

It's a good read about someone's desire to send a difficult heady route. Something tells me that were there a few more bolts placed on this route it would be a whole different story, or there wouldn't even be a story.

 

good read! thumbs_up.gif

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sometimes i go bouldering and there is no one else around. do i make a sound when i flail?

wave.gif

when people have asked i have always shared my campsite. party on.

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