CleeshterFeeshter Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 Rock & Ice had this specific topic in an article about 3-4 years ago using readily available numbers (like those that attempt Rainier and register at National Parks to climb). The article essentially said the same thing; that climbing is mostly safe with lower accident statistics than many other sports. Many insurance policies contain "dangerous pursuits" exclusions but fail to identify climbing specifically. If one dies whilst climbing, the beneficiaries may need a good actuary and attorney to further research the numbers if the claim is denied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 I was told by an Insurance Salesman friend a couple months ago that Term Life Insurance is at an historical low. The "Term" refers to a limited time during which you're covered. I've seen the results in action, and if you've got the spare money and people who depend on you, it's worth it. About a decade ago, my cousin got a policy (a BIG policy) for a trip to Aconcagua. His trip went off without a hitch, but he got the chop in a motorcycle accident a few months afterwards. His policy was still in effect. What was a shitty situation for his wife and four children was eased somewhat by the insurance cash inflow that let them stay in their home and let his wife keep focused on the kids rather than on getting work.I could find out more if you're still stuck. [ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: freeclimb9 ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payaso Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 There is an entirely separate level of hell where all insurance people go when they die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 I too have been contemplating life insurance. It has been difficult to come up with the extra cash on a monthly basis. However my question is do they specifically ask you if you "climb mountains"? Or do they ask you if you do "anything considered dangerous." What if you don't tell them you climb regularly. That way if you do die, your wife could hide all your gear and say it was a "new" thing for you. I'd also like to know what else they consider "dangerous". Scuba diving, flying planes, sea kayaking, bungee jumping, driving on I-5, using power tools, eating non-organic food. This is a good thread and a serious one. So lets hear from those who have life insurance or those who have been considering it. BTW- Did you know that insurance was invented by the MAFIA!!! All you're buying is protection of one kind or another. A neccessary evil?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 Ask KeithSchultz, he sells insurance for a living. Funny that climbers are a lot less likely to use their insurance than some fat ass tv jockey with clogged arteries. And often when a climber gets injured its not all that expensive - they either die or break a leg or something. Cheap compared to long term care for heart disease or all the shit that happens when your just fat and out of shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by CleeshterFeeshter: Rock & Ice had this specific topic in an article about 3-4 years ago using readily available numbers (like those that attempt Rainier and register at National Parks to climb). The article essentially said the same thing; that climbing is mostly safe with lower accident statistics than many other sports.Many insurance policies contain "dangerous pursuits" exclusions but fail to identify climbing specifically. If one dies whilst climbing, the beneficiaries may need a good actuary and attorney to further research the numbers if the claim is denied. The article Cheester is probably talking about is in Rock & Ice #58(Lynn Hill freeing the nose on the cover)It's a multi page article written by Jeff Smoot titled "Is Climbing Really Dangerous" - It covers North Cascades risk, Mount Raineer risk, and probably whats most valuable - a comparison of estimated accident and fatality rates of various activitiesto excerpt, per 100,000 participants Mt. Rainier 341 accidents 24 deathsAutomobiles 2,100 accidents 19.1 deathsNorth Cascades 98 accidents 18.6 deathsGunks Climbing 100 accidents 1apx. death The above is a small excerpt from the table Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelly Posted March 22, 2002 Author Share Posted March 22, 2002 David Parker - Yes, they specifically ask about climbing and the extent of your involvement. They also identify flying, scuba diving, and travel outside the US (go figure), as dangerous activities. I believe a comprehensive statistical study would prove that climbing is no more dangerous than driving to the market, bicycle riding or basket weaving. However, the insurance industry has "tagged" it as dangerour, thus higher rates. I do purchase insurance through my employer and they have an exclusion policy regarding dangerous activities. I tried to get the insurance company to negotiate an exclusion - no dice! However, I just learned that Northwestern Mutual Life does offer rates commesurate with ones level of climbing involvement.....typical cascade climbs, no sweat, head for the big hills in Alaska or Nepal, you'll pay more - that seems fair and I'll pursue further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRCO Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 Here's my life insurance story. I have a wife and a daughter, so I felt it necessay a couple of years ago to get life insurance. The first guy I talked to heard the word climbing and wanted to charge me something like $100/ month for a $250,000 term life insurance policy. No dice. The second guy wanted to know more about the specifics of my climing. Did I climb routes with fixed anchors? Did my climbs require that I spend the night? Had I received any special training or was I a member of a climbing orginization? I answered all the questions in a somewhat truthfull manner. Leaving out the parts that might scare him. With the questions concerning higher risks that I answered no to, I had to agree in writing not to due any of those activities for the next two years. I ended up getting a $500,000 20 year term for something like $29/month. Now that I am passed the two year point I can do what ever I want and I will be covered (supposedly!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by payaso: There is an entirely separate level of hell where all insurance people go when they die. tell me where it payaso??? since i am driving the bus to hell and i am an insurance person i would like to make sure i know where i am going....... and remember all my friends get reduced fare..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 [ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: David Parker ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 This is good feedback. How about sharing what companies and type of policies you have. Should I get an agent or check out this online stuff I get spammed with every day. I'm clueless but, investigating. FYI, I'm self (un)employed so it's all me, baby! What should I be wary of? Do they consider ice climbing as "more" dangerous? [ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: David Parker ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelly Posted March 22, 2002 Author Share Posted March 22, 2002 Eric - can you shed any light on this subject? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Nelly: Eric - can you shed any light on this subject? yes i can....my name is spelt with a 'k' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelly Posted March 22, 2002 Author Share Posted March 22, 2002 Erik - sorry, now it's clear why the insurance industry is held in such esteem. Keep driving, you're almost there..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 actually nelly i am an asshole claims adjuster...the only thing i can say about policy and underwriters is that they allow to many morons to get away with murder and other bullshit and then i have to deal with the scum bags and their messes....... granted good people get in accidents too, but who ever remembers the easy ones??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRCO Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 My policy is through Protective. I think I went to Insuranceweb.com and had a bunch of companies give me a quote. I chose a 20 year term because I figured after 20 years my wife and kids won't need the money if I do the retirement saving and college savings right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleeshterFeeshter Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 Payaso, I have been to that hell! It is known as the "cubicle" level and Dante made a special prophetic reference to it. It is that place where one sells one soul in oder to pay the mortgage, the cable TV bill, the broadband cable bill, the SUV payment, you then are forced into a 1.3hr commute (each way) at high speeds on I-5. You are allowed Alpine dreams;however, it rains every weekend thus dashing your plans- wait a minute- I left Seattle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelly Posted March 22, 2002 Author Share Posted March 22, 2002 Erik -fair enough, but again, who's at fault! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nierman Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 Hmm, I guess it depends on who is your company.My wife and I just got insured this past yearand climbing is not a risk activity. After twofull years of coverage we can even commit suicideand the policy will be effective. I guess shoparound till you find what suits you. Doug P.S. This isn't what we shopped around to find,just our first try. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonehead Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 Nelly didn't think this thread would go far, and look where we are now! I've had term life insurance for about 10 years now, and until I read the replies on this topic, I've never thought of checking it for climbing exclusions... Guess I should pull the policy out, dust it off, and see what I've got... Great topic, Nelly! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelly Posted March 23, 2002 Author Share Posted March 23, 2002 This thread probably won't go far, but what the heck. In an effeort to be a good father and husband I finally went out and started looking at life insurance policies. Wow, I was shocked to learn that being a climber makes me a suicidal maniac and I'm gonna die any minute. Actually, they say climbers have a higher mortality rate and, as such, need to pay increased rates, way increased! I contend, that just the opposite is true. That the generally healthy life style that accompanies climbing results in a lower mortality rate than the general public. I don't have any hard numbers, but of all the thousands and millions of climbers in the US, the mortality rate can't be much different than the general, McDonalds eating, TV watching, talking on the cell phone while driving, public! My insurance agent just gives me a blank stare and the underwriters don't excell in debate and discussion. If anybody out there is up to speed on Life Insurance, your 2 cents would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysticNacho Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 I've read that climbing hold significantly less dangers than we might think, statistically. Driving to a climbing site and back is more dangerous than rock climbing. In Yosemite, there are an average of 2.5 deaths, 50 fractures, and 15-25 rescues per year. Compare that to 25,000 to 50,000 days on the wall. Statistically, rock climbing is less dangerous than operating a power lawn mower, playing high school football, and surprisingly, backpacking. My source is "Climbing Rock and Ice" by Jerry Cinamon, his sources for those statements are footnoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 Nelly - I ran into this same attitude a couple of years ago when I searched for a policy so I would have something in place outside of my work group coverage. I was told that you can get around the system by stopping climbing for 3 -5 years, get a policy and then start climbing the day after the policy is in place. Apparently they don't care if you climb after they've sold it to you. One thing I also found out is that at my former company there were no exclusions for "risk" activities most likely because the risk is spread over so many people. My advice if you are at a company that offers life insurance is to get the maximum coverage you can. You can also purchase policies for specific trips if you are going on an expedition, but make sure you read the fine print because the covereage is expensive and not all of the companies will pay if you die in a mountaineering/climbing accident (the basic travel insurance policies don't). Good luck. [ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: ehmmic ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimpy Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 Right now I have a term life policy that, according to my agent, has no exclusions of any kind. A friend had recently died and the insurance company was yanking his widow and baby on a chain, refusing to pay up ($1,000,000 policies are cheap at 25 years old). She couldn't afford a lawyer and they just waited until all her resourses were depleted and two years after the death settled with her for a tad more than $200,000. I told my agent I wanted a policy that would pay, no matter what. He told me he had one policy where, if my wife was convicted of murdering me, they would send her the check in jail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted March 23, 2002 Share Posted March 23, 2002 I too was worried when I upped my life insurance coverage a few years ago. I have a policy through USAA, i.e. United Services Automobile Assoc., available theoretically only to those who have been in the armed services, but I'm eligible because my dad was in the Navy and my first ever car insurance was through them. Anyway, I filled out the form about "Risky Activities" with some nervousness, but they did not have to attach any rider to my policy or adjust my rate. I figured it was safe to ask them their underwriting policy at that point, and they said: Mountaineering in the continental U.S. is not dangerous enough, in their opinion, to add significantly to people's overall risk. They only need a rider for people who climb in the Himalayas (or maybe Denali). The underwriters must read Rock and Ice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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