Sleep depravation

[Gary_Yngve]

This summer I did a 72-hour scrambling binge in the Cascades and on two parts of Rainier, from the time that I rented the car to the time I returned it.

I was sleep-depped from the start from trying toget ahead on research. I drove about 500 miles,hiked about 50 miles, and had a vertical gain ofabout 15000 feet. I had no problems at all scrambling, but the driving was a royal bitch. It was like every twenty minutes I'd need to pull over andrun some laps around my car and do some pushups.

This winter I ended up doing a snowshoe trip after being up for more than 24 hours and had no trouble -- I wasn't the driver.

[Uncle_Tricky]

[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: Uncle Tricky ]

[cj001f]

quote:

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Originally posted by Muhammad Ali:

Carlyboy,Who the hell are you copping such an attitude and how many hours sleep did you need to discern what the hell my experiences are?

In fact, I've spent 24+ hrs out on climbs a few times. I haven't found the lack of sleep as debilitating as you apparently have - but then you seem to be playing with less than a full deck to begin with.Mr. Ali

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Mr. Ali -Didn't mean to offend - but when you write "What advice would you have to make the experience more fun that it sounds?" I assumed you had little to no experience. So maybe I read you wrong. Oh Well. Seems you have the attitude to go with the name. If you want advice:

-No coffee after about 20 hrs.-After some adrenaline - keep moving and maybe break the coffee rule - beware system crasses.

And I wouldn't call sleep deprivation debilitating, just limiting.

Carl

[mtnrgr]

I haven't done any single push climbs, but my job has provided long periods of time without sleep. (months with an average of 4 hrs/night, 3-4 days with average of 1 hr/night)

In my experence, good food is a must. I bonk real quick without LOTS of calories. Unfortunetly, Ranger school was all about no food and no sleep.

After a about 2 days without sleep you will start to hallucinated (I walking down a city street with people, stores, cars, etc., while I was actually in the woods).

You get just plain stupid, you forget things, lose stuff, you don't understand what people our saying. The dangerous part is most of the time you can't understand that all this is happening to you. Sometimes you fall asleep and not even know it. I have fallen asleep while walking. While that isn't that dangerous in the woods of Georgia with people walking behind you, the danger is obvious while on a glacier or ridge.

Some people just can't handle the lack of sleep. I know I will fall asleep if I am not actively doing something. My mind just starts to wander then I am gone. Interestly, I have very definate cyrcadian rythims, go through periods of deep sleepiness and alertness.

I want to try some single push climbs when I have more alpine experence, because I know how I handle under sevre fatigue, hunger, and sleep depervation.

[michaeljosephnozel]

Notwithstanding the obligatory digressions, this is a good topic. I am a proponent of single-push tactics--originally out of necessity--but now more as a preference. Single-push tactics are refined through experience, and are always evolutionary (I learn something new every time). As with any mountaineering, one's experience base allows progression to greater challenges. As I complete more single push climbs, I find that my partners and I become more adept at dealing with the issues of sleep deprivation, hunger, thirst, fatigue. (Granted, some partners have simply disliked the experience, and choose not to climb in this style, but many have found it their preferrable method of approaching a climb).

There was a time, not so long ago, that I carried every damn thing I could stuff into my pack. I was prepared for any eventuality . . . except moving fast. A nasty ankle injury, a few years back, prohibits the slow-and-heavy option. For me, it was just an adaptation, and now I would not choose to go slow-and-heavy, even if I could.

Single-push tactics can still mean a variety of different things: Everything from a non-stop blitz, to a lightweight, fast-paced ascent with interrim rest stops. And the rest stops could be short food/water breaks, or even quick bivies. But the common thread of the single push style seems to be (for me, at least) TO REDUCE the overall weight carried as much as possible, so as TO INCREASE speed as much as possible, so as to be in the danger zone as short as possible. (And . . . of course . . . so as to get back to the vehicle before my ankle seizes up).

Though the surgeons and orthopedic specialists warned me that it would no longer be realistic, I am proud to say that the following are routes I have accomplished in single push, car-to-car efforts, ranging from 18-36 hours: Jefferson Park Glacier, North Ridge of Baker, Adams Glacier, Southeast Spur of North Sister, Scimitar Glacier of Glacier Peak, Hotlum Headwall Ice Gully of Shasta.

I hope to continue adding to that list . . . .

[Bronco]

Don't take anything you absolutly don't need to have, improvise. Make sure no one in your group is carrying duplicate items. Using the Lightest ropes you can get away with can save pounds.

Hydrate and carbo loading the 24 hours prior to the climb can be a significant factor in how well you perform. Eat lots of pasta, breads and veggies the day before. Cytomax or similar helps on route. Moderate use of caffine is proven to be a performance enhancer. Opinions on it's diaruetic effects differ, so do your own research.

Emergency gear is pretty grim for me, 4 extra Cliff bars, hefty garbage bag, either a stove or iodine tablets, 20 ibuprofin caps and 5-10' of ductape.

Everyone has what works for them, try it with partners you know pretty well on a route you have done. It's not that big of a deal, how well do you really sleep on an overnighter with an apline start anyway.

[JasonG]

Not to offend anyone, but what hell is with all this banter?? Aren't most of us wannabees who are doing routes pioneered 30+ years ago?? Is doing them in a single push important enough to spray endlessly about?? Basically it boils down to getting out in the hills more, getting in better shape, etc., etc., and babbling online less (myself included). This thread is starting to sound like a poor rendition of "Extreme Alpinism".

[Bronco]

some of us do it because we are lazy and don't want to carry all of the extra gear required on a planned overnighter. It is kinda fun to travel light as well.

I would ask you - why the hell would you want to haul a tent, sleeping bag, pad, 2 extra meals and your large pack for what ammounts to 20 hours of climbing? Why not travel light and do it single push?

[JasonG]

Mainly because I like to enjoy the view for more than a few rushed minutes. A pack really isn't that heavy when all you take is a down bag, bivy sack, light rack, stove, etc. My 3000 cubic inch day pack has gone for four-day alpine traverses (like the Buckner, Logan combo) when I've packed light, plus you get more chances for cool pictures. To each his own, though. . . .

[lizard_brain]

I've been sleep depped a number of times before, and I HATE the feeling. I start talking like Tarzan ("Me want food") and can't concentrate.

The worst was one time coming back from a ski trip, driving down I-5 just getting into Seattle, and falling asleep at the wheel doing 65 mph. Woke up in the back of an ambulance with a couple of state patrolmen looking at me.

[catbirdseat]

Have you heard of modafinil? It is a drug made by Cephalon and sold under the brand name Provigil Approved by the FDA to treat narcolepsy, it appears to be a much safer drug than amphetamines, such as methamphetamine, Ritalin, and Dexedrine.

 

The article mentions "off-label" prescription of drugs. I'm wondering if you went to your doctor and told him that you are fearful of steaksauce off behind the wheel driving home after a big climb and dying, would he prescribe the drug for you?

 

Here's the article from the New York Times:

 

Wakefulness Finds a Powerful Ally

By ANAHAD O'CONNOR

 

Published: June 29, 2004

 

 

Laurie Coots, a marketing executive who flies to meetings in other countries twice a week, spent years trying to conquer sleepless nights and chronic jet lag. But nothing worked, she says, and every day was a struggle to stay awake.

 

"It was debilitating," said Ms. Coots, 46, who is from Los Angeles. "I couldn't give an effective presentation because I was always shaky and nervous from being amped up on caffeine and stimulants."

 

Then she found modafinil, a small white pill that revs up the central nervous system without the jitteriness of caffeine or the addiction and euphoria of amphetamines.

 

"Without it my life would not be possible," she said.

 

Since 1998, modafinil, made by Cephalon and sold under the brand name Provigil, has quietly altered the lives of millions of people. No one knows exactly how it works, but sales of the drug are skyrocketing.

 

People who take it say it keeps them awake for hours or even days. It has been described as a nap in the form of a pill, making most users feel refreshed and alert but still able to go to bed when they are ready. And because its side effects are rarely worse than a mild headache or slight nausea, experts fear that it has rapidly become a tempting pick-me-up to a nation that battles sleep with more than 100 million cups of coffee a day.

 

Few numbers are available, but experts say that as modafinil grows more widely available, it is becoming a fixture among college students, long-haul truckers, computer programmers and others determined to burn the midnight oil. Some worry that an array of common disorders, like diabetes and sleep apnea, will go undiagnosed if doctors dole out Provigil instead of seeking the underlying diseases that cause fatigue.

 

In a culture of 24-hour stores, graveyard shifts and coffee shops on every corner, modafinil might also pose a more subtle danger: to the countless Americans in search of an extra edge, modafinil could be a cure for sleep.

 

"This drug enables us to be that much more workaholic and that much more obsessed with accomplishments and productivity, and I think our society is already extreme along those lines," said Dr. Martha J. Farah, director of the Center for Cognitive Neuroscience at the University of Pennsylvania. "The natural checks on that tendency, like needing to go to bed, are being rolled back by modafinil."

 

To the extent that modafinil becomes the latest lifestyle drug, as ubiquitous as Viagra, scientists warn that cutting back on sleep, even by one hour a night, can have long-term neurological and cardiovascular effects that are only now being recognized.

 

"It's almost fortuitous that at the same time that this drug has come out, we have increasing mounds of data showing that sleep is a restorative, protective health process," said Dr. Neil B. Kavey, director of the Sleep Disorders Center at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center. "It affects performance, blood pressure, heart rate, insulin, various hormone secretions. No matter what medications come out that make sleep seem like a waste of time, we know that the sleep-deprived state is a bad one to be in."

 

Discovered by French researchers in the late 1970's, modafinil went on the market in the United States in 1998 as a treatment for narcolepsy, a severe sleep disorder. Earlier this year, the Food and Drug Administration broadened its approved uses to include obstructive sleep apnea, a narrowing or blockage of the airways, and sleeping problems caused by shift work. An effort by Cephalon to have the drug approved for a third indication, excessive sleepiness from any cause, was rejected.

 

But the three conditions modafinil is approved to treat make up only a fraction of its total uses. According to Cephalon, based in West Chester, Pa., 90 percent of all prescriptions for the drug are for "off-label" uses, including fatigue, depression, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and sleepiness caused by other prescription medications.

 

Click here if you want to read the entire article.

Edited July 1, 2004 by catbirdseat

[Jedi]

Special OP's trains for 72 hour missions were there is no sleep. Their system would not be applicable in the alpine world since weather is not predicable enough and prep takes several days.

Jedi

[Gaper_Jeffy]

Imagine how much harder we could spray here if we didn't have to sleep!

[cracked]

My sleep is quite depraved these days. I was worried when it started becoming corrupt, but it's beyond hope now.

[Jens]

I like single pushes because I'm to weak to carry a heavy pack and I sleep cold.

 

Driving home often seems to be my crux. It's amazing to have a partner that can take the last pull without swerving lanes. Those partners rule!

 

I think the the true definition of a Cascade single push is from home doorstep to doorstep. That will always be my personal ethic. I don't know why but I have always-- and will always consider sleeping at trailheads totally lame. -Just my two cents.

______

I'm to chicken to do it-- but I know of at least one advocate of an interesting way to stay awake for the drive home is to use addreneline -- mess with other drivers. I guess in this day and age, road rage might rule that out, but you'll certainly stay awake!