jawon Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 So I've always been curious how one develops a sport route, logistically speaking. I realize there's lots of variables but for a straightforward project, what is the process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Oooooooh. D-d-d-dwayner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 lacate proj rap to inspect possibilites do some cleaning do some more cleaning rehearse on top rop more reheasing spend many many many many many hours thinking about well thoughtout bolt placements rap and clean mark possible bolt placements tr and pretend to clip have many others do the same gather input on bolt placement and spacing tr and clean drill install hardware share with the world  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr666 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Pull out the gas powered Bosch hammerdrill and place bolt every 2 feet (on rappel of course). Then climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Erik, it would be a better world if everyone did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawon Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 This may be a loaded question and not worth exploring in an online forum, but how do you set up rap anchors in the first place? I'm especially curious about routes where it's difficult to get to the top or there are minimal natural anchors. I guess I'm just curious about techniques used for setting up rap anchors in various situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 you have to go to the very top and rap down installing the hardware as you go  or  you can aid up a or the feature and install the hardware.  why ya askin? if you r are thinking about putting some routes in, i would do lotsa thinking about the need and peoples desire for new routes. mostly ask yourself: is it worth it to other people? will other climb it? cause putting up a good route is alot of work and why waste your time if no one ever climbs it.   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 jawon said: This may be a loaded question and not worth exploring in an online forum, but how do you set up rap anchors in the first place? I'm especially curious about routes where it's difficult to get to the top or there are minimal natural anchors. I guess I'm just curious about techniques used for setting up rap anchors in various situations.  Hairball traverse/rappels on natural gear  Insane 4th and 5th class downclimbs  Aid  slinging natural features  place bolts for directionals  all of the above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Erik's recipe is very good, but he left out the final steps:  Test Lead Tinker  These can be major steps in the process. It has been my experience that even the most careful route-setters do not really know what they have created until they go back for the test-lead of their new masterpiece. It is then that you find the clips that seemed to be in a straight line actually cause the rope to saw into a pinching crack behind a flake or that those easy moves that you thought didn't need pro actually turn out to be very scary, or that rest stance just below the crux is in fact not a good place to clip because the bolt causes the rope to get in your way so it is easier just to skip that crux bolt. You also find out, on the lead end of the rope, that the holds you scrubbed and which felt just fine on a toprope aren't really all that clean feeling and that you gotta go at it one more time with the brush, or whatever. The "tinkering" process is often necessary to render a truly well-thought out climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Pine Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 If you're going to tinker then it makes sense to plan for the likelihood of removing an ill-placed bolt. I am not an experienced bolter, but one tactic I've witnessed experienced bolters use is to drill the hole deeper than necessary. Then if the bolt placement sucks and you want to "erase" it, you can just pound it into the hole flush with the rock. Â Seems like those removeable-bolt thingies might be a good alternative when "tinkering". But I have no hands-on experience with them and it seems like everybody I've ever talked to about those things hates them for one reason or another. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 5-piece Rawl bolts are nice for two reasons: Â 1. If you want to remove the bolt, all you leave is the wedge and sleeves in the hole, which can be easily filled. Â 2. It is a cap-bolt rather than a nut and thread, so no mussing around with exposed bolt/threads. Also easier for clipping, because there is no interference to the hanger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I worked with a fellow who has put up a looooooot of sport routes and accompanied him a couple of times. He worked incredibly hard to get it right. I remember our boss giving him a roofing hatchet once. He looked at it and remarked what an excellent cleaning tool it would make. Yup, he was out cleaning routes with it, wearing it down to a nub. Never seen anyone work so hard for no money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa_Eagle Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I have not developed a bolted route, so pardon me if this is a dumb suggestion. With regards to mattp's comments on tinkering, could you just place some non-permanent hangers (with some removeable glue or tape), then clip into them (with a trailing rope while still climbing on toprope) to see where the rope will go? This way there are no extra holes drilled into the rock if a bolt isn't in a good place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 ursa  yeah i think with enough tr sessioning you will not need to tinker with the placements. that is another reason why it is usually best to get enough opinions. tho i think that alot of boltplacement is natural if the route is sessioned enought b4 hand.  and you are right, the less holes the better.   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Of course some sport routes have been climbed from the bottom up on lead! Â PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 You might be able to do that, Ursa, but I'm not aware of any tape, and I don't exactly know what kind of glue you would use, either, that would actually stick and be readily removeable. I think ChucK's suggestion about trying the "removeable" bolts, or Mr. E's about using the 5 piece might be more practical. Â I should note that Erik is correct in saying my "tinkering" step in route development should not often involve bolt removal if you do as he described and truly mark potential placments, pretend to clip them, and discuss each one at significant length witih at least two or more different people, etc. But mistakes can happen never-the-less, and I have found it to be the case that you don't know what you have until you actually go for the test-lead. Â Mr. E. - how many of those 5-piece bolts have you placed, and in what kinds of rock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackbolter Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Peter_Puget said: Of course some sport routes have been climbed from the bottom up on lead! Â PP Â That ain't sport climbing Peter. Â If it is with a hand drill, on lead, from the ground up, it is something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 The route is independent of how it was created CB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Drilling on lead with a power drill is in some ways scarier than using a hand drill. You can put the hand drill away such that it might not hurt you in a fall. I'd sure hate to take a fall with the power drill in my hand or hung around my neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I remember reading about some europeans putting up a new route in Tsaranoro or somewhere. 5.12ish being bolted on lead with no aid I think. The leader had a pulley on his harness with a zip line to the belayer. When it was time to drill a hole the leader would hang on tight and the belayer would haul the drill up to the leader via the pulley . Then the leader would start the hole clip the rope to the bit as 'pro' while drilling. Good effort I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Another problem with drilling with a rotohammer on lead is that you can't really take a break with a rest on the bit. Once I drilled a hole about 30' from the last piece and lowered the drill so fast to the belayer (who was about sixty feet below me) that he couldn't catch it and the bit went smacking into his toe. We had to leave and he had a long hike out. Still haven't gone back to finish it. Â If you can set a TR set up you can always lower the drill! Â PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 may I suggest yet another variation we have used.. top down,TR,mark holes,drill,pull ropes. then "ground up" putting bolts in on the lead. still fun, and, you get to bring a hammer on a face climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Another possibility for checking the rope path is to suspend the rope from the anchors and duct tape it to the wall where your bolts will be. Not as posh but saves the rock from unneccessary drilling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 mattp said: Mr. E. - how many of those 5-piece bolts have you placed, and in what kinds of rock? Â Close to a hundred. Â Welded Tuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I ask about your use of these bolts because in the past I found them problematic. It has been so long since I've tried them that I can't really remember what the problems were but I seem to recall having trouble getting them into the holes and getting them to properly "grab" - I think these problems may have been as frequent as one in ten or one in twenty. Have you ever had such issues with them? Maybe I was just a bumbler but I distinctly thought that regular "studs" were easier to place (of course I think that was something like 15 years ago and the hardware may not now be exactly the same). Â The very characteristic for which you recommend them - that they are so easily removed - is also a drawback of the five-piece bolts. Bolts quite often go missing, whether through the work of bolt-hating rock cops or vandals, and we don't always want to facilitate that. Â Apart from these issues, I believe stainless steel 5-piece bolts are rather spendy, so this may be the main reason I know nobody who uses them. I will always argue that one should not "cheap out" when it comes to hardware, though, and the simple fact that I don't know anybody who uses them is not necessarily a reason to think they are no good. What you say about the lower head profile and the ease of removal is correct and maybe I should take another look at the issue. Â By the way, my friend "the safety man" has some weird bolts with coils kind of like a helicoil that he says are WAY stronger for a given size than either studs or 5-piece bolts. Have you ever looked at those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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