erik Posted October 15, 2003 Posted October 15, 2003 I was thinking that since the desert ice climbs are mostly formed thru groundwater runoff, i wonder if the water table in the coulee's drops due to drought or low rain fall if it would play a roll in the forming of some of the ice climbs? I understand that eastern washington's water table has been manipulated by one of the largest reclamation/agriculture projects in the u.s. whatca guys think? Quote
fern Posted October 15, 2003 Posted October 15, 2003 I don't know too much about geology or water projects in Eastern WA. But I would guess that large scale reclamation and irrigation projects are drilling deep wells into old groundwater reservoirs, deep aquifers that are not recharged quickly, nor do they deplete quickly during one or two year droughts. But the water that supplies the ice climbs is probably from perched aquifers nearer the surface... like sediments sandwiched between the basalts. These are probably recharged seasonally so they might dry out a bit during a short drought, but will be replenished with a wet season. And also this water supply is not the one tapped by the big reclamation proj. Quote
erik Posted October 15, 2003 Author Posted October 15, 2003 what i am saying is that the reclamtion project has created some additional aquifers. irrigation is the reason for the project, so i was wondering if anyone could comment on how much of a part that makes, as well as the natural water table. Quote
Dru Posted October 15, 2003 Posted October 15, 2003 could they trickle ice over the dam edges and make ice parks? Quote
Szyjakowski Posted October 15, 2003 Posted October 15, 2003 yes groundwater contributes to some of the climbs...but in reality the best years for ice in the coulees are when it snows and stays fukin cold! Quote
DPS Posted October 15, 2003 Posted October 15, 2003 The 'Desert Potholes' or 'Channeled Scablands' were formed when a large ice dam broke on an inland sea 10,000 years ago. The water scoured out basaltic rock laid down in pyroclastic events. The water table was significantly raised in the 1930s by damming the Columbia, creating the pothole lakes. The water table, oh wait, what was the question again? Quote
Paul_detrick Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 Right on ski, don't mean shit if it's not cold. Quote
sobo Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 DPS is right on so far. The Columbia Basin Reclamation Project (of which Grand Coulee Dam is it's most visible and recognizable man-made landmark) is the most responsible agent for the ice climbs around Banks Lake, Moses Coulee, and Ancient Lakes. This is because without the Project, there would *be* no groundwater to speak of to form these climbs. Eastern WA is a desert, ya know. It is the late-season run-off and winter groundwater seepage (supplied by irrigation earlier in the year) that supplies at least one of the requirements for an ice climb - free water. And Paul detrick is correct on one of the other requirements - It's up to Mother Nature for the coooooolllllldddddd. She's already provided the third ingredient - the vertical environment! Quote
Dru Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 deserts often have groundwater but just not rainfall. most groundwater areas in deserts are areas of aquifer upwelling. example: hot springs in Bishop area. end of geek lecture Quote
sobo Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 Right, but the Eastern WA desert is underlain by basalts of the Ellensburg and Grand Rhonde Formations that are over 10,000 feet thick. Yeah, there's water down there, but it isn't enough to well up and form icefalls. It's fahq'n deep! Quote
Dru Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 doesnt matter how deep it is just which direction the hydrometric gradient is. actually the drier it is the more likely for the hydrometric gradient to be up to the surface due to evaporation at the surface producing a negative surface pressure Quote
jon Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 Dru, doesn't the proximaty of the flex capacitor have a huge role in altering the partial pressure which invariably leads to a phase change? Quote
sobo Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 Dru said: doesnt matter how deep it is just which direction the hydrometric gradient is. actually the drier it is the more likely for the hydrometric gradient to be up to the surface due to evaporation at the surface producing a negative surface pressure Don't you really mean the hydraulic grade line or the hydraulic gradient? If the hydraulic grade line is at the surface (or above) of the ground, then by definition you would have an artesian well. We don't see that much out here in the Eastern WA desert. QED. Class dismissed. Quote
Dru Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 actually, no, i am not talking about artesian wells per se. i am talking about the same thing that forms salt crusts in the middle of death valley. high mountains all around - groundwater recharge. moisture surplus dry basin in middle - moisture defecit. groundwater discharge. but slowly. the net flow path of groundwater, in a desert, is UP, out of the ground. where it evaporates, and deposits the salts it has picked up along the way - forming salt crusts. Quote
sobo Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 OK, you make a good point. But you are talking about a minute quantity of water over a large span of time (relative to each other) to make this (salt deposit formation) happen. Nothing like the quantities of water that would be required to form climbable cryogenic formations. Let's say this: In Eastern WA, in general, the water that forms ice climbs in the Coulees is deposited and stored during the summer and fall as irrigation water that perks into the shallow soil horizon. It later emerges as "groundwater" seepage and freezes at the surface to form ice climbs. I think it is safe to say that it is not from any naturally occurring aquifer in the coulees. Quote
Dru Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 right, but..... if they didn't irrigate, there would still be ice. in a few places and maybe too thin to climb. but we get ice in un irrigated desert places elsewhere, like the side of the grand canyon... i wish i'd had my tools 5 yrs ago! sorry don't have scanned pic of it Quote
icegirl Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 Uh, like dru said. have you been around banks lake in the summer? Not a lot of irrigation going on and the ice still forms in good years, and doesn't in bad years. Water table is water table from where the well diggers stand. Either you get a regular one dug, or an extra deep well dug (We went for the deep variety and have not had a water problem up in the highlands above Omak) Water's been doin' it's thing for a long long time. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 I will look for ice when it get's cold. Thanks for the tips. Shitkowsi- see you this xmas time if you are around. Quote
sobo Posted November 12, 2003 Posted November 12, 2003 icegirl said: Uh, like dru said. have you been around banks lake in the summer? Not a lot of irrigation going on and the ice still forms in good years, and doesn't in bad years. Water table is water table from where the well diggers stand. Either you get a regular one dug, or an extra deep well dug (We went for the deep variety and have not had a water problem up in the highlands above Omak) Water's been doin' it's thing for a long long time. Sorry to bring this back to the top, but yes, Laura, I have been around Banks Lake in the summer (it's part of my job), and contrary to your belief, there is a SHITPOT of irrigation going on EVERY YEAR, all over the flatlands above the cliffs! That's WHY we have ice climbs of the sort we do at Banks. It's because of all that irrigation water being stored in shallow acquifers and soil horizons, then seeping out over the winter and freezing as it finds its way to the cliff faces. The fact that you have water in your well in Omak has more to do with groundwater hydrology, pore pressures, and capillary action than anything else. Quote
Dru Posted November 12, 2003 Posted November 12, 2003 so why doesn't groundwater hydrology, pore pressures, and capillary action also form climbable ice then, O great and Powerful Oz, uh, um, sobo? Quote
sobo Posted November 12, 2003 Posted November 12, 2003 Well, it does, O Most Revered One of the Northlands, just not around the Eastern WA desert. The referenced contributors have a lot more to do with ice climbing around places like say, oh, Colorado. For a groundwater acquifer to play a serious role in forming ice climbs, it's got to be near the surface so the water can flow up and out, then freeze. The acquifers in the Ellensburg and Grand Rhonde formations are nowhere near enough to the surface to contribute to climb formation in the Eastern WA desert. It is the shallow ARTIFICIAL acquifers that are contributing to the climb formation, said shallow acquifers are caused by IRRIGATION. WHICH IS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET ACROSS ALL ALONG. Note that every one of my posts above, save the 1.2 Gigawatt one, addresses irrigation as the major contributing factor to ice climb formation in the Coulees. I shooda jest let this thread die when it was already dead. I'm going out for own Pub Club now... Quote
Dru Posted November 12, 2003 Posted November 12, 2003 if there is water available for wells - then there is water available for ice. undoubtedly you are partly correct, in that, the irrigation may be fattening up some ice. but, if you took away the irrigation, there is still water available for ice. unless you are claiming that the water in people's wells is irrigation water? in which case i imagine evian sales are skyrocketing. Quote
sobo Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 Dru said: if there is water available for wells - then there is water available for ice... Not entirely true, Dru. Are you trying to say that every house that has a well doesn't need a pump in the borehole? hmmmm... Quote
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