Dru Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 In fact, I DO believe that this site has had an impact upon my own and some other climbers' bolting practices. In other cases it has simply caused the "offenders" to go underground. As to Mitch, I cannot say whether he is ever likely to listen to other opinions that may be expressed on this site or elsewhere, but I think what is said here DOES impact what some prospective bolt choppers are likely to do. Â I also believe this site could become MORE influential in these matters if the participants here were willing to retrain themselves a little bit, engaging in less posturing and spray so that there could be a freer exchange of more divergent ideas. Â There is no doubt that this site has helped get some anti-bolt rock cops together; how about letting it have some other impact on the matter? Â Nobody is forcing you to participate in this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 I also believe this site could become MORE influential in these matters if the participants here were willing to retrain themselves a little bit, engaging in less posturing and spray so that there could be a freer exchange of more divergent ideas. Â Yeah it sounds all fine and dandy but I don't think it's going to change much. I've already read about earlier this week people defending rap bolting on cracks and they seemed pretty adamant to continue. Â Perhaps they are as guilty as Retro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 Cavey, I didn't read anybody to be defending the practice of rap-bolting cracks, but perhaps I missed something. Â There was a discussion where it was said that this had been done at Index, and then it was countered that in fact the examples given were not completely accurate. I think the general result was that there had in fact been some RP aidable cracks that had bolts added for pro (I'm not clear just how many - but it sounds like this happend in a couple of places (3?) and that some anchors had been installed next to a crack somewhere else. I didn't see anybody assert that this was a good thing and that they were going to continue doing it so much as I think the argument was that yes, it happend and here's why, and maybe it is not so bad as was suggested. Â It is fine if you don't care to know why, when, or who may be doing these things - or what actually happened. But I would hpe that you would take these factors into account should you decide to complain about it or to try to do something about it. Note: in my mind, the identity of "who did it" is probably the least important of these factors. Â You are right, though, that the course of history is probably not going to be changed by this or any other thread on cc.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 I think the general conclusion was that there had in fact been some RP aidable cracks that had bolts added for pro (I'm not clear just how many - but it sounds like this happend in a couple of places (3?) and that some anchors had been installed next to a crack somewhere else. I didn't see anybody assert that this was a good thing  I read some defensive statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Dru said: mattp said: In fact, I DO believe that this site has had an impact upon my own and some other climbers' bolting practices. In other cases it has simply caused the "offenders" to go underground. As to Mitch, I cannot say whether he is ever likely to listen to other opinions that may be expressed on this site or elsewhere, but I think what is said here DOES impact what some prospective bolt choppers are likely to do. Â I also believe this site could become MORE influential in these matters if the participants here were willing to retrain themselves a little bit, engaging in less posturing and spray so that there could be a freer exchange of more divergent ideas. Â There is no doubt that this site has helped get some anti-bolt rock cops together; how about letting it have some other impact on the matter? Â Nobody is forcing you to participate in this discussion. Â your pretense that your own posturing and spray, by attempting to disguise it as reasoned debate, is neither, has failed. Â Â It worked on me. I appreciate the perspective Matt brings to these conversations, and the fact that he takes the time to express it in a well thought out and considerate manner. Â There plenty of other threads where you can chime in with the irreverent/irrelevant quip if that's all that you are willing or able to contribute. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Bolting cracks is wrong in my view. Even at crags. Some alpine climbers in the PNW may think that crags are just a training ground, but some of us view cragging as real climbing in itself. Â I suspect that alpinists who use crags to train aren't the perpetrators here. More likely they are people who are either new to the sport and don't understand the trad ethic or are just dumb f*cks who don't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 Michele, one would expect that to be the case, but it really is not. The people who have been bolting cracks around here, in just about EVERY case, are very experienced climbers (though perhaps not alpinists), and they DO care. But in each particular situation they decide that their actions are justified: the pro was sketchy RP's or gear that would have had to be placed behind an expanding flake or something; or they think it is stupid to have an entirely bolted climb require a single cam; or the crack in question is on a sport climbing crag so they think: what is the problem? There are a couple of guys who put up sport climbs without these "extenuating circumstances," and most posters here would agree that these are probably the most serious offenders, but these guys, too, care a great deal and they work very hard at trying to do what they think is a good job of putting up their climbs. I'm sure it has happened, but I have not heard of a single case where somebody who bolted a crack in Washington was a person who did not care or who was inexperienced. That is part of what drives the bolt-haters up the wall. They ask: if these "so-called responsible" guys can talk themselves into bolting our cracks, where's the reason for hope that anything can change? The entire world is soon going to be overtaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 I guess that makes the debate that much more complex then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Yes, they are not "alpinists," perhaps, but they are good climbers who know what they are doing. That is part of what drives the bolt-haters up the wall. They ask: if these guys can talk themselves into bolting our cracks, there's no hope. The entire world is soon going to be overtaken. Â I dont agree with those lines. But if that's what you really think well it's finally in the open. It has nothing to do with "alpinist" in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 I have never come across a bolted crack. A few chicken bolts or climbs that would only have a few gear placements but was all bolted instead and that would be up to the person that established the route. If it's not your route don't phuk with it!!!! Dick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 This thread has been weeded of spray (mostly) and put back up. Sorry about the host of deleted posts, but there was no way to do it cleaner. Express your opinions, stay on topic, and keep it civil, I think the topic merits the serious consideration many here have given it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 I started this thread in an attempt to try to address one tiny sliver of the bolting debate. My thought was that it might be helpful to bring some perspective to the debate if we looked at individual complaints about bolting practices separately: rather than taking the shotgun approach and saying there are "too many" or "not too many" bolts, and "you guys suck" or whatever. I posted a poll, which has drawn some criticism but which I hoped to use as a kickoff for a discussion of just how much of a problem (with regard bolted crack climbs) do we think we have. Â Alex reported that he climbed some Leavenworth routes last weekend that were an absolute tragedy, and Tim L said that he thinks there are more bolts next to cracks in the Icicle Creek valley than at Smith Rock. In response to a post from Cavey, I noted that last week's discussion of bolted cracks at Index resulted in the identification of about three climbs where protectable cracks may have been bolted, but upon further reflection I recall that about a year ago we discussed one more bolted crack at Index. The point remains, however, that we are probably talking about fewer than 1% of the climbs at Index and at least some people think that those particular cracks were not reasonably protectable without the bolts. Can anybody make a similar calculation for Leavenworth? Are there bolts next to a crack on more than 1% of the climbs there? Does such a number matter? Is there a single climb at Leavenworth that is truly a crack climb that has had a line of bolts installed next to the crack? You could say that a single bolted crack in the entire State would be one too many, and somebldy else might say that we could live with a few, but no more than a few bolted crack climbs at any given area. Somebody else might say that it is really not all that much of a problem (yet) because outside of North Bend and Vantage, there really are not any crack climbs that have been bolted and there aren't very many places where somebody has put bolts that you could actually place good gear anywhere in the state. How much of a problem is it if somebody has put a bolt next to a crack where someone with an aid-climbing background could get a tricam to stick? Do you think that bolting cracks is really a common practice, or is it rare? Is it increasing? Â "There are too many bolted cracks," we say. Is that all that can be said in answer to "how much of a problem is the bolting of cracks?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 a royal robbins reference about bolting isn't appropiate here, oh well. Â my 2 cents- Â don't place bolts unless you can't protect as trad never met a bolt i didn't like get comfortable with chockstones, carry less gear. Â my opinion, but i won't quote anyone like Robbins, gosh, it feels like a stalinist purge in here sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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