Water purification?

[Attitude]

Purified

[erik]

LUMMOX

 

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I ASKED WHERE THERE IS A A VALID SOURCE IN THE WILDERNESS? YOU SAID SOMEONES ASS, THAT IS NOT THE ANSWER I WAS LOOKING FOR. DUH!

 

AND DETRIOT THAT MIGHT HAVE LOTS OF WILD THINGS THERE, BUT IT IS NOT THE WILDERNESS...

AND ANOTHER THING, I DONT THINK I HAVE PUT SHIT IN MY MOUTH....SO.......................

 

HAVE A NICE DAY!

 

 

[iain]

come on you must have packed a hot lunch before

[erik]

iain said:

come on you must have packed a hot lunch before

 

i dont like chili dogs.......tho lummos does and he even knows a good place in detroit!

 

 

[lummox]

erik said:

LUMMOX

 

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I ASKED WHERE THERE IS A A VALID SOURCE IN THE WILDERNESS? YOU SAID SOMEONES ASS, THAT IS NOT THE ANSWER I WAS LOOKING FOR. DUH!

 

AND DETRIOT THAT MIGHT HAVE LOTS OF WILD THINGS THERE, BUT IT IS NOT THE WILDERNESS...

AND ANOTHER THING, I DONT THINK I HAVE PUT SHIT IN MY MOUTH....SO.......................

 

HAVE A NICE DAY!

 

oh. you dint write 'valid' before.

seriously though. someones shit getting into someone elses gut is how people get sick (that can be from cows or beaver or some other animal. dont have to be human). no doubt the odds of shit ingestion are low when you are in the backcountry. i reckon most bouts of the squirts are from peoples own lack of handwashing after they wipe their ass.

[erik]

THATS WHAT I THOUGHT TOOL BOI!

THANKS!

 

 

[Wopper]

Lummox is correct. As my MD sister in law would say "fecal to mouth" is how you get sick.

As stated before, who cares if you use a filter, iodine, or boil it as long as it works for you. BTW, I have done all three in different parts of my life and never gotten sick.

[Yos]

Polar Pure:

 

Lightweight, never expires, used to manufacture methamphetamines.

[Thinker]

for what it's worth:

 

 

Crypto Threat Growing, New Study Shows Iodine/Chlorine Ineffectual

 

A joint guidance released by the CDC and the EPA this past summer outlined the grave new threat posed by the infectious protozoa Cryptosporidium to the immune-suppressed. Apart from a sturdy immune system, no cure has yet been found for Cryptosporidiosis, Government tests show that at least half of the municipal water systems in the country remain contaminated with Crypto even after the water is treated, and over 87% of surface water in the country is thought to be contaminated with Crypto. Public awareness of the Crypto threat is growing, but many may still believe that chemical disinfection (iodine tablets or chlorine crystals) will protect them from that threat. Several studies have shown that disinfection is not in fact effective. The latest study is entitled "Efficacy of Water Purification Tablets and Granules Against Cryptosporidium Oocysts and Giardia Cysts", dated August, 1995, and conducted by the Department of Microbiology & Immunology at the University of Arizona. When tested according to their usage instructions, neither the iodine product nor the chlorine product worked against Crypto. Though neither product claims to protect against Crypto, only Giardia or "protozoa", it is important for people to know exactly which pathogens they are and which they are not being protected against with any product. With the iodine, "the tablets were not effective in the inactivation of Cryptosporidium oocysts in either average or worst case water quality conditions." With the chlorine granules, "no inactivation of [Crypto] was observed..even after 6 hours of contact." The Giardia was more responsive than the Crypto to disinfection, although with both iodine and chlorine, "a longer contact time was required than recommended by the manufacturer to inactivate 99.9% of the Giardia cysts in worst case water." This parasite is common to all surface waters in the United States, Canada and overseas, and effective treatment of drinking water is needed to prevent its transmission.

[Thinker]

and

 

Safe Drinking Water - Guidance for people with severely weakened immune systems

 

Cryptosporidium is a parasite commonly found in lakes and rivers, especially when the water is contaminated with sewage and animal wastes. Cryptosporidium is very resistant to disinfection, and even a well-operated water treatment system cannot ensure that drinking water will be completely free of this parasite. Current EPA drinking water standards were not explicitly designed to assure the removal or killing of Cryptosporidium. Many large water systems already voluntarily take actions for greater control of Cryptosporidium and other microbial contaminants. By 2001, the water systems serving the majority of the United States population (those relying on a surface water source, such as a river, and serving more than 10,000 people) must meet a new EPA standard that strengthens control over microbial contaminants, including Cryptosporidium. EPA continues to conduct research on microbial contaminants which will be used for determining priorities for the drinking water program, including setting future standards and reevaluating existing standards.

 

Cryptosporidium has caused several large waterborne disease outbreaks of gastrointestinal illness, with symptoms that include diarrhea, nausea, and/or stomach cramps. People with severely weakened immune systems (that is, severely immunocompromised) are likely to have more severe and more persistent symptoms than healthy individuals. Moreover, Cryptosporidium has been a contributing cause of death in some immunocompromised people. Individuals who are severely immunocompromised may include those who are infected with HIV/AIDS, cancer and transplant patients taking immunosuppressive drugs, and people born with a weakened immune system.

 

BACKGROUND:

 

Data are not adequate to determine how most people become infected. For example, we do not know the importance of drinking water compared to other possible sources of Cryptosporidium, such as exposure to the feces of infected persons or animals, sex involving contact with feces, eating contaminated food, or accidentally swallowing contaminated recreational water.

 

Thus, in the absence of an outbreak, there are insufficient data to determine whether a severely immunocompromised individual is at a noticeably greater risk than the general public from waterborne Cryptosporidiosis. Even a low level of Cryptosporidium in water, however, may be of concern for the severely immunocompromised, because the illness can be life-threatening. The risk of a severely immunocompromised individual acquiring Cryptosporidiosis from drinking water in the absence of an outbreak is likely to vary from city to city, depending on the quality of the city's water source and the quality of water treatment. Current risk data are not adequate to support a recommendation that severely immunocompromised persons in all U.S. cities boil or avoid drinking tap water.

 

In the absence of a recognized outbreak, this guidance has been developed for severely immunocompromised people who may wish to take extra precautions to minimize their risk of infection from waterborne Cryptosporidiosis. To be effective, the guidance must be followed consistently for all water used for drinking or for mixing beverages. During outbreaks of waterborne Cryptosporidiosis, studies have found that people who used precautions only part of the time were just as likely to become ill as people who did not use them at all.

 

see the continuation and links on the EPA web page

[iain]

a nice stomach infection isn't all bad. death gas on request is a valuable skill.

 

you could have a nickname like Commander Coil maybe a cape and stuff.

[Ursa_Eagle]

Commander Coil......

[erik]

Thinker said:

for what it's worth:

 

 

Crypto Threat Growing, New Study Shows Iodine/Chlorine Ineffectual

 

A joint guidance released by the CDC and the EPA this past summer outlined the grave new threat posed by the infectious protozoa Cryptosporidium to the immune-suppressed. Apart from a sturdy immune system, no cure has yet been found for Cryptosporidiosis, Government tests show that at least half of the municipal water systems in the country remain contaminated with Crypto even after the water is treated, and over 87% of surface water in the country is thought to be contaminated with Crypto. Public awareness of the Crypto threat is growing, but many may still believe that chemical disinfection (iodine tablets or chlorine crystals) will protect them from that threat. Several studies have shown that disinfection is not in fact effective. The latest study is entitled "Efficacy of Water Purification Tablets and Granules Against Cryptosporidium Oocysts and Giardia Cysts", dated August, 1995, and conducted by the Department of Microbiology & Immunology at the University of Arizona. When tested according to their usage instructions, neither the iodine product nor the chlorine product worked against Crypto. Though neither product claims to protect against Crypto, only Giardia or "protozoa", it is important for people to know exactly which pathogens they are and which they are not being protected against with any product. With the iodine, "the tablets were not effective in the inactivation of Cryptosporidium oocysts in either average or worst case water quality conditions." With the chlorine granules, "no inactivation of [Crypto] was observed..even after 6 hours of contact." The Giardia was more responsive than the Crypto to disinfection, although with both iodine and chlorine, "a longer contact time was required than recommended by the manufacturer to inactivate 99.9% of the Giardia cysts in worst case water." This parasite is common to all surface waters in the United States, Canada and overseas, and effective treatment of drinking water is needed to prevent its transmission.

 

so i dont think there are too many immune supressed backcountry travlers out there.....but who knows?!

 

 

 

 

[bunglehead]

Thanks for the beta and spray. You guys are hilarious!

Fighting about water purification. YES!

 

Still don't know what I'm gonna do though.

The main reason I'm reluctant to buy a filter is that I'm tired of giving my money to Fucking REI. I swear, it seems like every damn time I go in there, they have less and less of a selection. And why the FUCK can't they just mark shit down instead of the dividend? I mean, it is great to get a check every year, but I'd rather just save it up front.

[Attitude]

[erik]

$60 bucks for a filter

and then anouther $15-$20 a year for a new cartridge.

 

or $5 a year for pills.

 

1 cubic foot of space in your pack

 

1 cubic cm in your pack

 

1.5 lbs in your pack

 

1.5 oz in your pack..

 

you make the call.

 

plus dont you have a stove too?? so if the water was particularly nasty i betca could boil it!!

 

 

[Thinker]

erik said:

so i dont think there are too many immune supressed backcountry travlers out there.....but who knows?!

 

Granted, the real risk of crypto and giardia is to humans with a special sensitivity to those organisms, a compromised imune system being one example. That's why I am personally comfortable treating my water with iodine.

 

I really posted it to show some 'real' data about what iodine and cholorine do and don't kill.

 

There is certainly some wiggle room in the 'study' regarding 'effective' treatment. How is that defined? Is it a 100% kill rate? Is it a LD50? How many organisms can one expect to find in a quart of water of any quality, and what is the minimum number of organisms required to infect a human?

 

How does the risk of having complications due to crypto or giardia compare to the risk of eating spoiled food in the back country? How likely is it to get crypto or giardia from your drinking water vs from your own fingers (or your partners fingers) if a team is not rigorous about hygiene?

 

My hunch is that more backcountry illness come from transfer of microbes between members in a party rather than from 'bad' drinking water sources, though both do regularly happen.

[TurtleSoup]

you guys slay me. you get all bent outta shape about drinking peeps pooh when ur in the bc, but u dont think twice about tounging ur man or ur woman the night before ur climb. what gives? wheres TRASK when u need him to set you straight?

[bunglehead]

erik said:

$60 bucks for a filter

and then anouther $15-$20 a year for a new cartridge.

 

or $5 a year for pills.

 

1 cubic foot of space in your pack

 

1 cubic cm in your pack

 

1.5 lbs in your pack

 

1.5 oz in your pack..

 

you make the call.

 

plus dont you have a stove too?? so if the water was particularly nasty i betca could boil it!!

 

 

 

All true!

[erik]

Thinker said:

My hunch is that more backcountry illness come from transfer of microbes between members in a party rather than from 'bad' drinking water sources, though both do regularly happen.

 

NOT TO BE A PEST OR ANYTHING(BUT ISNT THAT WHAT I DO BEST?? ) BUT COULD YOU DEFINE AND SUPPORT REGULARLY...THE ONLY PERSON I'VE KNOWN TO CONTRACT GIARDIA GOT IT IN NEPAL.

 

 

[Gary_Yngve]

erik said:

$60 bucks for a filter

and then anouther $15-$20 a year for a new cartridge.

 

or $5 a year for pills.

 

1 cubic foot of space in your pack

 

1 cubic cm in your pack

 

1.5 lbs in your pack

 

1.5 oz in your pack..

 

you make the call.

 

plus dont you have a stove too?? so if the water was particularly nasty i betca could boil it!!

 

 

My filter is under a pound.

It is way under a cubic foot... by at least a factor of 50... I'd say its volume is about half a liter.

 

This is my second year using it and I haven't had to change the filter yet. This is partly because I plan ahead and try to filter my water from good sources.

 

Sometimes in the summer I leave the stove/pot/fuel at home to be even lighter.

 

 

[Attitude]

erik said:

$60 bucks for a filter

and then anouther $15-$20 a year for a new cartridge.

 

or $5 a year for pills.

 

1 cubic foot of space in your pack

 

1 cubic cm in your pack

 

1.5 lbs in your pack

 

1.5 oz in your pack..

 

you make the call.

 

plus dont you have a stove too?? so if the water was particularly nasty i betca could boil it!!

 

Cartridges are more expensive: $25-50.

 

Most filters are much smaller than one cubic foot. Maybe one liter.

 

Most filters weigh less than one pound.

 

If you're going to boil the water, then you have to carry around the extra fuel to do so. Fuel is a pound per pint.

 

Typical Erik factoids.

[Gary_Yngve]

Rodchester said:

Read the written material that comes with most filters. Almost universally you will find some statment about having a back up in case the filter: breaks, clogs, or is lost. I have seen Pur (some years back) recommend that you carry iodine tablets as a back up.....Hmmmm.

 

That's called, "They don't want to get their asses sued."

[Cpt.Caveman]

Gary_Yngve said:

Cpt.Caveman said:I can anticipate when I need to carry water. 9 times out of ten on a trail you only need one water bottle.

 

Yes water is frequent on most trails. That means I can fill up at the trailhead and calculate when I need it simply. Ive been doing it for a long time and never had to carry more than one liter unless on a grade IV climb. Otherwise it's usually been pointless.

 

Right, so that one liter of water you are carrying weighs two pounds.

 

Suppose you are doing Triumph.

Chug water at the TH. Don't carry any.

Filter a liter at First Thorton Lake and chug. Don't carry any.

Filter at top of col...

 

With iodine, you'd be hiking up to the col while waiting for your water to purify.

 

Gary that's a lot of supposing. I'm not that stupid.

 

I guess you dont get my comments. Thats ok.

[Gary_Yngve]

erik said:

please explain your logic on the 2lbs 1 liter bottle theory? and also the pills i have take 10 minutes to work. oyu cant wait 10 minutes? and ray is right plan ahead! you know forethought!! it works amazingly! even for beyond the water drama!

 

filters are not for us based CLIMBERS(i dont know about backpackers)

 

One liter of water weighs 1 kilogram, which is over two pounds. If you have to use chemicals to purify the water, you have to either sit and wait for it to work or you have to hike while waiting for it to work, carrying the extra weight in the meantime. If you have a filter, you can drink up instantly, and not have to carry any water.

 

In fact, for those people arguing volume, if you have a Platypus, your volume can be less when using a filter because you don't ever carry the liter of water.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying a filter is for everything... I really like a filter on long approaches and for climbs that are not carryovers. But it seems the general attitude of people here is that filters suck, which I think is a tad overblown...