senseless bolting

[Crackbolter]

Bronco said:

Crackbolter said: I think you already answered your question Bronco. The bolts are for safety. You are refering to crag routes that are approached by day hiking. Quit wasting your time debating roadside crags and get out into the mountains. There you won't have to worry nearly as much about bolts. Many times you will wish you had your own hand drill or at least brought your own hammer and pins because the climbers who established the routes were better than you or at least much more bold.

I don't understand your first point that the bolts are for saftey. Are you suggesting that it's ok as long as it makes a climb safer? Why not fix a line and move a jumar up as you climb?

 

On your second point regarding the mountains, I strongly disagree. If a route is established and typically climbed without fixed protection, (Alpine or Crag), who am I to put a bolt in and "dumb it down" for the next, stronger climber than I am. I'll back off before I put a bolt in to compensate for my lack of ability to repeat a route and climb something easier.

 

Maybe I'm just being nieve and my opinion will change with more experience. But, right now I don't see the line between why certain bolts next to cracks are acceptable and some aren't so I'm satisfied just listen and learn. I guess it's not all black and white, just pastey and gray like my belly.

 

I didn't say I thought it was okay. The fact is, I don't care about a bolt on a roadside crag. You can bolt the crack, chip the rock and leave your dog at the base with the empty beer bottles for all I care. The ambulance is only a cellphone call away either way. If you go far enough away from your car you will see less and less bolts and more pitons or better yet, no fixed anchors at all. How many times have you climbed a route wishing you had pins or a hand drill to protect the next lead or a crux pitch? Yes you probably would back off if you were equiped inadequately. I sure would. Getting back to roadside crags, they are to accomodate the masses. The easier it is for you to climb the route and get off for the next party the better. That is all I am saying.

 

Folks, have a great weekend.

[j_b]

Peter_Puget said:

As a side bar I would note that in several areas land managers have asked climbers to install rap anchors so that easy walk off are not used in order to reduce erosion.

 

excellent point PP. although i suspect that such pressure on the landscape usually implies heavy traffic on the routes, in which case establishing an independent rap line is in order.

[Dru]

j_b said:

Peter_Puget said:

As a side bar I would note that in several areas land managers have asked climbers to install rap anchors so that easy walk off are not used in order to reduce erosion.

 

excellent point PP. although i suspect that such pressure on the landscape usually implies heavy traffic on the routes, in which case establishing an independent rap line is in order.

 

if you install an "independent rap line" sooner or later someone will put bolts in between your rap anchors and create a route

[j_b]

Dru said:

j_b said:

Peter_Puget said:

As a side bar I would note that in several areas land managers have asked climbers to install rap anchors so that easy walk off are not used in order to reduce erosion.

 

excellent point PP. although i suspect that such pressure on the landscape usually implies heavy traffic on the routes, in which case establishing an independent rap line is in order.

 

if you install an "independent rap line" sooner or later someone will put bolts in between your rap anchors and create a route

 

if it is an appriopriately chosen rap line, i doubt heavy traffic on it would ever be a problem such that it interferes with people going down

[Dru]

oooh yeah lets not interfere with people going down!!!!

[j_b]

 

going up, of course.

[Greg_W]

"Senseless bolting" is redundant.

[mattp]

Damn. I leave this board to do some work and I find I've been misunderstood. Waaaaaa.

 

I did not say that bolts are not an issue to land managers, or at least I didn't mean to say that. What I meant to say was that the issues they generally worry about are very different than those that we climbers worry about and most land managers do not care whether somebody places bolts next to cracks or whether a given climb could be made safe with one bolt or one hundred. They are generally not worried abou the environemental impact of a tiny hole 3/8" by 2" being filled with metal, as much as they are worried about whether the bolts can be seen by other users who may complain about them, or whether a newly bolted area is going to draw lots of climbers and become a management issue, or whatever. I think the content of the discussion that you had with the ranger at Beacon Rock, RBW, that you cite to show how wrong I am, actually supports my position on this point. I am sure that someone will fire back an example of how some ranger at Josua Tree was incensed that a climber would bolt the beautiful face of What-the-f**K Rock in some pristine backcountry area, or whatever, but I don't think this kind of reaction is common among land managers; it is THE core issue for many climbers.

 

And then I am chided by ChucK for noting that bolts did not ruin North Bend. In fact I said no such thing. I noted that one entire wall there was characterized by nothing but bolted climbs even though I knew of three lines on it that could be mostly or fully protected with crack gear. I did not say this was a good thing. What I said was that I did not think this could be taken as support for the idea that the proliferation of bolted cracks starts with belay anchors. *

 

Bronco asks what is the central question of this thread when he questions why, if it is generally thought improper to place bolts next to cracks, we would make exceptions for certain bolts that we think might belong next to cracks. I think we have presented several situations here where the exception to the general rule is justified, and I don't think we need fear that these exceptions will swallow the rule, but obviously people take all different positions on these issues.

 

*In actual fact, while I think someone HAS shown what can at best be termed "bad taste," I do not think the existence of three bolted crack pitches on WWI is a big crime against humanity -- but that is not the point that I made in my prior post and I certainly do not say that North Bend climbing areas can be cited as an example of how bolts are not a threat. Clearly, the proliferation of sport-bolting, particularly the practice of grid-bolting entire crags, and the acceptance of bolted cracks, DOES post some threat to traditional climbing. It is not something that I would want done at all, most, or even all that many of the crags in this state. I can tolerate it at Little Si, though. Hell, I even like climbing there and GregW, Neversummer and I climbed one of those bolted cracks just last week.

[AlpineK]

Dru said:

oooh yeah lets not interfere with people going down!!!!

 

Get down and get funky with bolts for added for safety.

[Dru]

you mean like dis shit

 

clip and go

 

Hey Necro is that yours

[Thinker]

Thinker said:

Maybe someone should go yank out the anchors on the ledge at the top of the first pitch of Canary. There's plenty of crack there for a gear anchor....

 

I say this 'tongue-in-cheek' to demonstrate that there's no one rule that fits every case.

 

(and for the stoners who don't understand sarcasm, I'm really NOT advocating the removal of those bolts.)

 

chucK said:

What an interesting and cordial discussion of bolting. You guys are the best. Let me please step in here and take a couple jabs......

 

The mention of bolts on the Canary ledge intrigued me too. Though I don't advocate chopping them like Thinker did ( ), .........

 

ChucK, I'm assuming you read my post closely enough to realize that I'm NOT advocating chopping those anchors and that you are making an attempt at dry humor here. My point is that the subject 'ethics' is (and always has been) a gray area at the fringes, and in this case I'm making the specific point that there are unlikely any rules or principles that apply universally in this matter.

 

I'm personally very happy to clip those anchors (when they're not completely full of biners belonging to climbers who've climbed other routes to that ledge), but I don't have a problem plugging in a couple of cams and staying out of the CF, either. I'm actually glad they're there to keep the number of rap slings down in that location.

[EWolfe]

All you need is $700, construction supply, a hammer, wrench and a straw!!!

 

Go Boys!!