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IceIceBaby

senseless bolting

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from NEclimbs.com:

"someone sent me some very interesting pictures. No matter what your level of involvement in

the local climbing community, these should at least get you thinking...

 

The discussions have raged over the past couple of months regarding to

bolt-or-not-to-bolt. Initially starting over the perceived egregiousness of

2 bolts placed on Black Pudding Gully last winter, it quickly widened to

include the retrobolting of Arete-Z-Vous at Sundown this the Spring and

other indiscretions. These discussions have, of course, spilled over into

the local community. I personally think that community involvement in

working out a controversy such as this is a good thing, and I am confident

that the dialog will continue apace.

 

That said, the following series of pictures serve to illustrate the problems

that are driving the issue, and the lengths that some are willing to go to

"set things right." This took place after it was "discovered" that a 2-bolt

anchor had been placed on Pendulum Route on Cathedral Ledge, immediately

right of the bomber crack...”

pendulum crack

crack bolt 1

crack bolt 2

crowbar

whach whack whack

tap tap tap

pendulum gear anchor

tool kit

so what ya think

mad.gif

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Were they rap anchors, or for a hanging belay off of bolts instead of setting up their own anchors? Not for leading the crack obviously.

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Well Ice Ice what do you think?

 

My only comment is that they wheren't very good at what they were trying to do. Namely: Why all the BS crow bar shit. Sure they pulled it out a bit but ultimatley they broke it off! Why not just start whith that idea. Ultimately their end result is at best not different and you eliminate the chance of fucking up the rock with all the prying.

 

Ah amatuers at work.

 

PP bigdrink.gif

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There is no need to bolt a crack especially when it offers such a good pro…as it seems here it is not a rap station it is a belay station and BTW on cathedral u can walk off or use the abundant rap anchors on the neighboring routs tongue.gif

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Well, I don't like those kind of hangers. I did like the "serious business" look on the guy doing most of the work. I think it would be more telling to have a photo of the end result. I agree with Peter that it's harder to do a good job of pulling a bolt than it is to place it. I don't know enough about either the route or the crag to have an opinion on the presence of the anchor in the first place. Most will agree that bolts next to decent placements on a pitch are bogus. I'm guessing the crag in question has a walk down, so a fixed anchor for descent is not necessary, and in the modern world of ropes ranging from 50 to 70 meters, its nice to be able to choose the belay that suits you rather than have it decided in advance by someone with a drill. Slut that I am, I'd probably have clipped them if they were there, or not missed them if they weren't, but not have gotten worked up enough to remove them.

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Hopefully they didn't fuck up the rock too bad pulling the things out. There's nothing quite so stupid as someone crapping their pants about a couple bolts and permanently trashing the rock pulling them out. What would you rather see; a pair of bolts that don't need to be there but could still be used, or a pair of hideous rock scars that don't need to be there and can't be used for anything? And, without the backstory on these bolts, it's kinda hard to say whether they're actually useful for anything or not. Obviously the removers would have us believe they're useless, but most bolt yankers seem to have that opinion. Moot point now, apparently.

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I agree. why pull them out? Seems like you're doing more damage to the rock them leaving them in

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Looks like you have already taken care of it and the debate is closed for now. Nice crack restored, great looking granite.

 

But you guys are not yet in the "pipe swinger" hall of fame. http://www.mindspring.com/~bjfaber/

 

BTW: last night I was listening to a guy get pissed at somebody who put chains on a rap station out at Beacon Rock. Seems this fella was OK with webbing but not chains.......well, I don't have much to say on that.... but there ya go. It amazes me the divergance of views on the bolt issues. New people do not seem to have ethics, and then tend to be upset when somebody else does have ethics.

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eternalX said:

I agree. why pull them out? Seems like you're doing more damage to the rock them leaving them in

 

If the bolts are left next to the crack, it's as if the locals are giving permission to bolt the entire crack. Those bolts had to go and I'm glad they are gone.

 

DFA, Bolt pullers have a responsibility to minimize damage to the rock when getting rid of the offending bolts. However, any damage done is the fault of the bolter, in my humble opinion. I'd rather see scars than bolts right next to a hand crack anyday.

 

GO PIPESWINGERS!!! thumbs_up.gif

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Bronco said:

 

 

If the bolts are left next to the crack, it's as if the locals are giving permission to bolt the entire crack.

 

They were anchors, that's quite a stretch to make that connection. rolleyes.gif

 

The anchor bolts on Davis/Holland do not make anyone want to bolt the cracks. Where do you people come up with some of this crap?

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eternalX said:

I agree. why pull them out? Seems like you're doing more damage to the rock them leaving them in

Because New England's trad land, and they'd like to keep it that way. They've a much higher climber/area ratio than us in the west and much less possibility for further expansion - so they'd like to keep what they've got the way it is.

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Glad to hear you have a firm grasp of bolting ethics slaphappy. Many people don't.

 

I haven't been up Davis Holland on account of my weak climbing skills so your analogy is lost on me. I don't understand the need for newly bolted belay anchors at good cracks in the first place. If the bolts have been there for a long time, that 's fine, but, I don't buy into the theory that all belay stations need to be bolted.

 

I came up with "that crap" based on discussions with my climbing buddies and common sense.

 

Have a good day. thumbs_up.gif

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slaphappy said:

Bronco said:

 

 

If the bolts are left next to the crack, it's as if the locals are giving permission to bolt the entire crack.

 

They were anchors, that's quite a stretch to make that connection. rolleyes.gif

 

The anchor bolts on Davis/Holland do not make anyone want to bolt the cracks. Where do you people come up with some of this crap?

 

Maybe someone should go yank out the anchors on the ledge at the top of the first pitch of Canary. There's plenty of crack there for a gear anchor....

 

I say this 'tongue-in-cheek' to demonstrate that there's no one rule that fits every case.

 

(and for the stoners who don't understand sarcasm, I'm really NOT advocating the removal of those bolts.)

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Bronco, your friends are full of crap and they lack common sense if they think that an acceptance of the placement of belay anchors is likely to be mistaken as an acceptance of bolting cracks for pro. This would be particularly true at Cathedral Ledge in New Hampshire, but even if we look at the most heavily bolted climbing areas in Washington - Vantage and North Bend, it does not appear that bolted belay anchors have been a dangerous step toward the bolting of cracks. At Vantage, many of the crack climbs have had bolted belay anchors for years, and I believe there is only one climb that has had the crack set up with bolt pro since then - red M & M's or something, part of which was formerly protected with RP's and such (shallow RP's in Basalt hellno3d.gif). And Vantage is a place where the rock does not hold gear very well, as illustrated by the death of Goran Kropp. At Exit 38, everything is bolted whether there is a crack or not. At Little Si, there are a couple of classic crack climbs that have had bolt anchors at the top for over 15 years (Mambo Jambo and the wide crack next to Goddess) and there are some other "gear climbs" nearby along with one that has had bolts added next to crack pro (Carpet Bombing). Also at Little Si, there are a couple that were bolted at the same time the belay anchors were added - when the area was first developed (Reptiles and Amphetimines and another nearby) and there is one climb that has had bolts added in the years since the bolt anchors were placed there (Son of Jesus). These bolted crack climbs are on WWI, where every other climb on the entire wall is exclusively bolt- protected. To state that allowing bolted anchors leads to bolted cracks is wrong. Allowing sport climbing is what leads to bolted cracks and, in the case of Little Si at least, even the hardcore sport climbers have had the sense to leave some cracks unbolted. Where they have bolted cracks, it has not really proven to be the pattern that they first added belay bolts and then came back to bolt the crack itself.

 

I agee that there is not a clear need to bolt every belay station but the question of whether any particular station would be better bolted or not depends on many factors, and in my opinion the availability of natural pro is a primary consideration but not the only one. At Lower Town Wall, for example, I applaud those who have replaced the former heaps of webbing that was slung around dubious combinations of rusty pins, old bolts, chockstones, dead trees, or whatever, with two-bolt belay stations equipped with chain. Twenty years ago, you used to look from the parking lot and see sling anchors all over the cliff, and now you see almost none. By adding the chains, I don't think the quality of the climbing, the "dignity" of the rock, or the sense of adventure one feels when they lead any given pitch on that wall has been diminished very much when compared to the resulting improvement to the whole aesthetics of the place and climbers' safety. I'd sure be against it if someone decided they were going to go up there and pull out all bolts that could feasibly be eliminated with the use of crack gear.

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Bronco- I used Davis/Holland as an example because although there are bolted anchors at all the belays, the first two are not used to rappel the route and there is sufficient gear for natural anchors. Although I don't know this for fact, I highly doubt that the stations were put in during the first ascent. I also think you would be hard pressed to find a single climber that wants to add protection bolts to the route.

 

I still don't see how leaving a bolted station is "as if the locals are giving permission to bolt the entire crack". Where's the "common sense" in that assumption?

 

However I do agree that not all belay stations need to be bolted. For example, Library Ledge received fixed anchors a number of years back. Someone promptly removed them and did a fantastic job of restoring the holes. I fully support their decision to do so.

 

I never said I agreed with the removal of this set of anchors or not. A lot of things need to be considered, the history of the area, location, and the history of the FA just to name a few, and I have no knowledge of the area or climb.

 

You have a fine day as well! bigdrink.gif

 

Thinker-There are endless examples such as yours, some could be pulled without dramaticly affecting the route. I don't feel your example is one of those but what about the old 1/4" belay on Orbit? (I am by no means suggesting the removal of them)

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...and what mattp said! thumbs_up.gif (except this blanket statement "Allowing sport climbing is what leads to bolted cracks". Frickin edit button...)

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Mattp:

 

No need for the condesending tone (or is there confused.gif). You have much more expereience than me or my friends at local route developing as well as a stellar reputation for placing bolts asthetically and necesarily, so I'll defer to your statements and quiet down.

 

(breif explanation/excuse for my loudmouth comments) I guess being of limited experience, I have chosen to stick with the old theory of "you don't add bolts to an established route - period". I don't feel qualified to decide if there should be a bolt added here or there or anywhere and frankly, don't understand how one can decide that after climbs have been done without even belay anchors for years, to add some bolts "for safty", but, I guess I don't really have to worry about it since you won't find me bolting anything anytime soon. I was a bit overzealous in my statements above but still feel strongly about not bolting next to a gear placement, even for a belay station.

 

Have a great afternoon. thumbs_up.gif

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Bronco said:

Mattp:

 

No need for the condesending tone (or is there confused.gif).

 

mattp called condescending?????? horrors! next thing you know capt. caveman will be called belligerent boxing_smiley.gif or muffy will be called dizzy cantfocus.gif

 

yellaf.gif

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I'm sorry you don't like my tone, Bronco, but I just feel rather strongly that there are is a lot of misinformation out there when it comes to bolting ethics.

 

Don't misunderstand me just because I go into a tirade, though: you have just as much right as I do to express your opinion on ethical issues or any other issue whether you have been climbing for thirty days or thirty years. Whether or not I have a "stellar" reputation has nothing to do with it; we're talking about crags that belong to all of us.

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What's the difference between adding belay bolts at a crack "for safety" and bolts at a crack mid pitch "for saftey". That's the paradox I guess I don't understand that maybe some of you more experienced or philosophical people can answer.

 

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