AlpineK Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 I agree that setting a route with intentional huge run outs is lame. Or at least there should be only one in every climbing area. I've been to the base of Perilous Journey on Micky Maus Wall and checked it out, and I'm glad all face climbs aren't like that. Most old school face climbs seem to have bolts at stances where the leader could let go of the rock and drill; which leads to long runouts. I think that the combo of electric/gas drills and rap bolting makes it too easy to set up routes. Because of that climbers need to try and control the urge to shoot bolts in everything, or else someone else will control it for climbers. I would like to add I've climbed a route mattp and his gang (or is it club) bolted, and I thought they did a great job. But I've also climbed bolted routes where the FA party should never been alowed to touch a drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 I'm late to this thread, and I'll probably never be the climber most of you guys are, but I have to say to Pope...amen, brother. The question of what to bolt is important, and we need to keep discussing it. There were a few ultra-purists in the early 20th century in Europe who felt that the use of a rope was a moral compromise. This movement literally died out as its proponents died in falls. The rest of us seem to agree that it's acceptable to protect yourself with a rope and anchors, including (at least sometimes) bolts. The argument is really about what these bolts mean. Even the fiercest environmentalist would probably admit that the rock doesn't mind being bolted-- at least, not very much. It's human beings (some of us) who suffer a loss, because the meaningof one part of their world has been corrupted. I'm not trying to sound ridiculous here. No climbing activity can hold up to logical scrutiny-- there's a quote from that recent book on El Cap from Ernst Becker's "The Denial of Death" that says, in essence, never look too closely at what you're doing to maintain your self esteem because it probably doesn't make much sense-- but I think there is a meaning and a purpose behind why we climb, and it's different for trad/alpine versus sport climbing, even for people who do both. There are some dishonest things about both pursuits, but sport climbing is fundamentally more dishonest, unless it's done with a top rope. A trad route without bolts can be climbed a hundred times with the leader facing the same challenge as the first ascent. This rarely happens because we use guidebooks, we get beta from other climbers, so we know more than that first guy knew. This is cheating to a small degree. Reading guidebooks and route descriptions is the top of the slippery slope; Sport climbing a rap-bolted route is the bottom (at least for now). The dishonesty of "lead" climbing a route that no one ever put up on lead is just a lot more obvious. But the real difference, I think, is how these climbs are defined in the mind. The challenge of a complex alpine ascent, in my mind, has more differences than similarities with a one pitch sport route. On a pure ascent, you don't have to know if anyone has been there before you, and you face not only the same physical challenges as anyone else has, but the same mental ones too. When I'm satisfied with a climb I've done, it's usually because I handled the mental challenges well. There are a few mental challenges to sport climbing, but the essence of this approach is to eliminate the mental challenge from climbing and reduce it to a purely physical act. If I follow each ethic to its logical end, then for trad climbing it's an onsight free solo of a great big mixed route, and for sport it's a one pitch (or even one or two move) route in a gym, a man-made route that exists only to serve human needs. I don't want to climb something that's there just to serve my needs. I want to discover the world more on its own terms. Both kinds of climbing can be fun, but the traditional approach has more meaning to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Great post Norman. I enjoyed reading it. Thumbs up. trask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 One thing that I note in this thread is that we all seem to agree that bolted slab climbing can be an acceptable form of climbing. Also generally agreed (here at least) is that fewer is generally better -- that bolts are at least somewhat undesirable for environmental and aesthetic reasons, and that too many of them detract from the fun and challenge of a climb. But we all have different ideas about where the proper balance may lie, and we probably won't ever agree. I'm not sure about the idea of how the "honesty" of the first ascent affects the experience shared by subsequent parties, but that is a point worth pondering. One tangent that I'd like to comment on is the view expressed by Pope and supported by Norman that rappel bolting is always or even generally worse than bolting on lead. I disagree -- I think that putting bolts in the wrong place is always worse than putting them in the right place and while this may be more of a problem for rappel-bolters, it need not be. On rappel, it is easy to see what appears to be a good line, drill it, and then discover that one bolt cannot be reached from the logical stance and another that protects what you thought was the crux turns out to come just after rather than just before the crux. If you then drill a couple more holes, you have a mess. But when bolting on lead, it is equally easy to install a bolt at what is a comfortable stance only to then find out that the apparent route above doesn't work out and the bolt should have been ten feet to the right, or to run out of rope and install a hanging belay because you were too scared to downclimb to the belay ledge twenty feet below. In either scenario, those that come after you will have been greatly dis-served, even if the leader in the second example may have had a better excuse for what he or she did on that particular day. Indeed, the rappel bolter has greater opportunity to carefully evaluate the proposed line and to consider the need for and nuances of each and every placement. They also have a greater opportunity to make sure the holes go in clean and straight. For some reason, they often do not avail themselves of these opportunities. In part this is because the lack of risk involved means that those with less experience, who are more prone to making mistakes, are more likely to bolt on rappel. Further, it is just too easy. But while I recognize that a ban on the use of power drills or rappel bolting, if enforceable, might slow the proliferation of bolts, the real issue is not that rappel bolting is bad and a tirade against rappel bolting is just not going to make sense to many climbers these days. However, it is difficult to disagree with the argument that over-bolting and poorly planned bolting result in a mess, and a campaign oriented squarely toward these issues is likely to be more generally understood. Whether bolting on lead or on rappel, sensitivity is necessary and there is a great deal of skill and some art involved. It is not a "fresh perspective" as requested by Pope, but I believe that the best course of action lies in working together, to foster access to the widest possible range of climbing experiences, and in the context of the current discussion of slab climbing, I believe this holds true just as it does when talking more generally about rock climbing. Peshastin Pinnacles was closed for ten years. I believe that just a few years ago, Darrington was in real danger of being lost as a result of simple neglect, and Static Point is now closed, purportedly because of what I think is an irrational fear that some terrorist might try to poison the Everett water supply. At all three of these areas there is a very small group of people who expend an effort toward promoting climber access or maintaining and developing the climbs themselves. Unlike, perhaps, Vantage or Index, the slab climbers seem to be able to get along with each other and it is not because they all agree as to every aspect of style and ethics. This may be simply because there are not the crowds of those other areas, but I don't think any of these three slab-climbing areas has ever seen anyone turned away who wanted to help. If you want to see a particular style of climbing protected, its up to you. Really, it's that simple. [ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: mattp ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriss Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Traditional (trad) climbing is about leading a climb from the ground up and placing protection as you go. With out preveiwing the route or prepping, or whatever. Bolting CAN and has been done in a traditional lead manner. And clipping bolts does not make the climb a sport climb. Big Rock Candy Mtn. has only a few routes, the easiest is 5.10 or so. The South Platte area has a lot of domes. Most of the slab climbs are run-out. But, there is a reason. They were lead in a traditional manner with bolts as protection. The leader could not stop and drill just anywhere, they climbed until they found a place for gear or could get both hands free to drill. Even with these bolts, they remain trad climbs. Until they become "safe" for the masses by being retro-bolted. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Great post, Norman. It's encouraging to read such thoughtful commentary. MattP, I'm not going to agree with your analysis of the relative merits of rap vs. lead bolting. I haven't done much of either, although I've done more of the latter. I've been able to drill 3/8" bolts in granite on the lead in as little as 20 minutes, with excellent results. It can be done. It requires careful planning; it requires a willingness to not even start a route if you suspect things won't go. I assume you've done plenty of both types of bolting to know what you're talking about. What makes it more acceptable to me is, as Norman points out, the route has a different meaning when established on the lead. The qualities I mentioned as being absent in the establishment of Vantage sport routes--these are required for lead bolting, and so each bolt then represents a conscious decision, behind which both skill and commitment are necessary. As you've pointed out, the power drill and the rap-drilling approach make it too easy, and this is precisely how eager young climbers can wreck a place in less than a decade. Having said that, I sometimes think you take personally the statements I've made about irresponsible bolting. Maybe I'm wrong, but you don't seem to hesitate to review posts I make on this subject. Based on what I know about you, and what others have said, I'm certain that if I were to climb routes that you've established (on rap?) at Darrington, I'd find them to be thoughtfully equipped: not too run out, not insultingly over-bolted. I'm certain your routes would follow aesthetic lines which could not be protected without bolts, and I doubt you've got a route going every 7-1/2 lateral feet. And if you choose to bolt these routes on rap, I'd say, first of all, too bad that you're cheating yourself out of an adventure. But if the result is excellent, if the use of bolts shows restraint, I would have not one objection. I also agree that the goal should probably be to get a grip on current bolting practices, to try to persuade those establishing routes with bolts to put more thought into it. I know it's ridiculous to expect that climbers are going to establish routes from the bottom at sport cliffs; people just don't have the patience. Nevertheless, maybe it would be possible through dialogue to avoid tragedies like Vantage in the future. Maybe people who frequently climb at a particular cliff could somehow coordinate first ascent activity in such a way that runaway bolting is avoided. I tend to think you're going to have a tough time telling people how they should bolt their sport climbs. I'd rather see energy directed to preserving the traditional nature of crags that haven't yet been molested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Anybody Else - Any other ideas about slab climbing styles? About rap vs lead bolting, about how the "honesty" of the first ascent affects your experience, about how we might - or whether we should - try to keep trad areas trad and sport areas sport? In the context of our small corner of human endeavor, these are great questions. Pope – I have bolted both on lead and on rap and I've placed what I believe to be both good and bad bolts both ways. I've also worked to clean up my own mess and what I saw as messes made by other climbers who did it both ways -- I've actually spent a good deal of effort on such projects and part of that included contacting or attempting to contact those other climbers before I took it upon my self to do anything (and yes, I can think of no better word than mess, though I suppose "crime" or "disgrace" might also apply in certain cases). In addition, I have discussed the relative merits of both approaches (rap or lead) with a fair number of people who are currently active around the State. I honestly believe that if practiced correctly, and that is a very big "if," rap bolting can produce a better crag climb. But I will say again that I don't completely discount the idea that there is some other significance to the method in which a first ascent was made. You and Clyde make some compelling arguments on this point. I think you are correct that it will be an uphill battle to "tell people how they should bolt their sport climbs," as you put it. Sport or trad, bolt installers or bolt pullers, crack-cleaners or fern savers, most of us are not warm to the idea that somebody doesn't like our style and we don't want to change what may have become a habit. And a lot of climbers, ego driven as you point out, are particularly resistant to being told what to do because their belief that they are both skilled and self-reliant is part of their schtick. But other than calling "the man" to shut the whole thing down, what else can you do but try to engage other climbers in a dialog and go from there. You suggested that I should not take it so personally. Perhaps you are right, but I should tell you that I genuinely cringe when I read some of your posts because they are so strident that in them I see no prospect for anything but further contempt between climbers with different points of view. I like the passion in your writing -- some of it I find amusing and some of it quite poignant, but I do believe that you overstate your case at times. As to the issue of the proliferation of bolts, keep up the good fight. And let's go climbing in the real world, outside, we could probably make headway toward answering these great questions. - Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Chuck and Pope - The way you two write I almost get the impression that you're suggesting something is amiss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Pope, I think you overstate your case. In suggesting that anybody who likes to climb or put up bolted routes suffers from an insatiable ego and has utter disdain for "the community;" by stating that they lack traits like courage, skill and honesty; and in ranting and raving the way you do, you make yourself sound like a trad-climbing bigot who probably has an insatiable ego, has utter disdain for the community and may be dishonest. Please don't misunderstand me, I believe that you honestly do have concern for the vertical environment and for the sport but I am afraid that your message is lost in your tone. Its not that I disagree with what I think is your basic premise, either. My hat is off to you, to Mitch, to Bill Robbins (yes, Bill), and to anyone else who speaks out about the proliferation of bolts and the sport climbing ethic. However, I believe that your contribution might be more valuable if you could find a way to participate in discussions on this board, or meetings or letter writing or other organization off this board, or if you could participate in some active crag maintenance outdoors, in a manner that might promote communication and cooperation rather than fostering ill will and a tendency for many climbers to disregard what you have to say. I apologize if this sounds like I want another DDD part IV or Negativity argument, but I received a private message urging me to reply here and I figured I'd come out once again in favor of peace and love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Hey, that's what I was going to say but then thought I was misunderstanding him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latch_Holeflaffer Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 I just feel like throwing my two cents in. I am what most of you would call old school. I have never liked drilling it's hard work and not much fun. So, I only have about twenty first ascents where I have had to drill. In some ways leading a new route with a bolt kit hung on your rack is less scary than heading up on a known route that has big runouts. Most routes that I have been part of space the bolts out because of time contraints ,lazyness, a lack of bolts in the kit or it just kind of happened because you feel your way up. It's easyer to run it out than to stand for an hour on a micro and drill. Most of the time after I did a pitch with sparse to no protection I felt a mixture of pride and regret. Cool I was bold enough to do something dangerous but now I have created something that hardly anyone will want to do and is potentially dangerous. I Like sport routes. I wish a bunch of the routes I have put up had more bolts on them. Yes, bolts are ugly, so is blood. I'm willing to bet not many of you have taken a hundred footer on a quarter incher because of a nub breaking out under your foot. When a person creates a route and puts a huge runnout into it, it's either because of ego(I'm bolder than you are), they were out of control(I can't down climb and their are no stances), the climbing is trivial for them or they are short on bolts. I don't know of anyone I have ever climbed with who went up on a blank slab and not put in a bolt because of environmental concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted January 25, 2002 Author Share Posted January 25, 2002 Greetings, Insomniacs... Good comments from all. Just thought I'd chime in again on this one. One of the more common concerns that I hear voiced when old-schoolers (addressing someone as old-school is a compliment, BTW) talk about sport climbing is that somehow the ethic that permeates sport climbing will permeate and corrupt bastions of traditional purity - e.g. climbers reared in the cozy womb of the climbing gym will head out in droves and bolt the classic trad lines into submission. I understand the concern, but has this really been a significant problem? How many trad lines out there have been bolted other than DDD in the past few years? Maybe it's different out there, but it really hasn't been a problem out here in Colorado. If the old-school bolted routes in the Platte are suffering from anything, it's a lack of attention from climbers. Maybe if more folks climbed there we'd be rid of some of the 20 year old 1/4"ers that abound there. Since I've been out here I've only heard rumors about ONE crack being bolted in the entire region, and they were gone within days, or so I hear. Unfortunate, yes, but hardly indicative of a looming plague. And retrobolting run-out routes? Again - not a problem. People who dig-run out slab climbing frequent the area because that's the kind of climbing experience they're looking for, not because they want to diminish it. There's just not a lot of crossover between the type of people who would retrobolt a climb and the kind of people who frequent bastions of old-school ethics. Hell - even at Shelf which is about as likely to be retrobolted as any place in the country, where the term "Grid Bolting" may well have had its genesis - I've only heard of someone adding bolts to an existing climb on a single occaision. Anyhow, it seems like the basic dispute stems from an agreement about what sort of ethic should prevail in climbing. The fact of the matter is that we're never going to come to a consensus on that one and come up with a code that satisfies everyone. Nor should we. The last thing climbing needs is some sort of politburoesque Ethics Collective supervising the entire enterprise. The solution? Abide by the ethics that prevail at a particular crag. If I don't like the style of climbing found at a particular crag, I don't climb there. In a similar vein, bolters leave established trad areas alone, anti-bolters don't chop routes at established sport areas just because they object to the idea of bolts. Seems to work. It's not always that easy, of course. What about bolting a face at an established trad area that has no cracks or other features anywhere in the vicinity? Depends, I suppose. But Turkey Rocks is about as Trad as Trad gets - but there are still a few bolted routes that have survived. Apparently the locals have decided to leave them alone as long as the construcionists have kept them far away from existing lines and features that'll take pro. Seems like a workable solution to me. Whaddya think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 I think Jay is right in suggesting that the the argument over bolting overstates the actual problem. But would liek to add that the solution of the problem is through friendly constructive engagement. I do have to add a comment to those who say that sport climbing reduces climbing to a merely physical endeavor. That is tantamount to saying that for example, gymnastics, has only and physical component. Ask any gymnast if there is a mental component and I am sure the response will be hell yes! PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: I do have to add a comment to those who say that sport climbing reduces climbing to a merely physical endeavor. That is tantamount to saying that for example, gymnastics, has only and physical component. Ask any gymnast if there is a mental component and I am sure the response will be hell yes!PP Peter, Read what I wrote, no what you want to hear. My statement was that if bolt proliferation continues climbing will eventually come down purely to genetics and grip strength/weight ratio. Yes technique is involved and for us mere mortals it's the technique that gets us up our hardest routes. Yes there is a mental component that has to do with digging deep to hang in there for a little longer on sport routes, but that's not the mental aspect most people think of as related to climbing..it's fear control and contructive vs destructive use of fear. You can say gymnast this gymnast that, but let's face it, it's apples and oranges. Gymnasts are judged, that's righted JUDGED..evaluated on a subjective basis, on precision of movement, climbers only need to make it to the top, an objective end. Have you ever seen Dave Graham climb? What about 3 years ago? The kid had less technique than half the climbers in your local gym at the time and was still climbing 5.12 as warm ups and climbing at the top of the scale. Ward somethingorother, a 40 something New England local, with John Long-type build who's climbed 5.14 himself said about the kid (paraphrased)"When I mfirt met him he was a wicked strong scrawny kid with zero technique, now he's wicked strong with medium technique". At the top of the scale, with no mind control involved the strongest climber will eventually come out on the top of the heap of climbers. If people were establishing "sport slab" routes in the 5.13-5.14 grades I'd say, yeah Peter, you're on the mark, but that's not the case. It's about how small of a hold you can pull on on a steep wall and for how long. [ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: willstrickland ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriss Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 The posts seem to reflect the posters climbing history. Ask someone who has climbed in the area for a longer period and you get a totally different prespective. Not that they are right or wrong. JayB, you haven't met or talked with Steve Cheney (long time local) about Turkey Rocks or Shelf Road or Sheep's Nose or the Garden or.... He has another take on the bolting issue and history there. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Will - Having both climbed and participated in gymnastics I can say that in my experience many parts of a routine are very scary and have the potential for injury. True it doesn't happen much but the same can be said for free soloing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Peter, I couldn't agree more. When you think about it, everything has a mental component...except maybe breathing and maintaining a pulse. Peter, do you think it is possible for closely-spaced bolts to insult your intelligence? As mentioned by Jay in his recent, illuminating contribution to this thread, an attempt to respect the established practices at a particular cliff might sort all of this out. He notes areas in Colorado where such an approach appears to function successfully. It makes an enormous amount of sense to me. What has put me over the top recently is seeing the retro-bolting of established top-ropes on road-side bluffs in Leavenworth, and also the DDD episode. With so many bolts to clip in the immediate area, what purpose do these dubious projects serve? Regarding what most sport climbers think about bolted slabs: I would guess that sport enthusiasts would think they're really boring. Friends don't let friends climb slabs. To the question of whether there can't be room for a few bolted routes at a traditional area: if it's so important to you, if you just can't live without another bolted route, then open your mind and try it on the lead. Why? First of all, nobody will bitch about it. Second, you'll feel very satisfied, you might even decide it's a lot of fun. Finally, and most importantly, you'll send a message to grid bolters, through your fine example, that bolts aren't supposed to be sprayed around on a whim, that judgement and restraint should be practiced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Will -Having both climbed and participated in gymnastics I can say that in my experience many parts of a routine are very scary and have the potential for injury. True it doesn't happen much but the same can be said for free soloing. Peter, perhaps a comparison to bouldering would be a lot more appropriate? Two big spotters, big cushy crash mats, not likely you'll be injured but possible...sounds like they have alot more in common ehh? A dude did die two years ago in a very short bouldering fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Peter, Do you seriously believe that the complete removal of bad-fall potential is NOT a major element of the definition of a sport climb? Or are you just playing nit-pick semantic games? Are you just trying to defend gymnastics? WTF? Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 On the subject of retro-bolting, ever hear this one before? "Dude, like that route was doomed to obscurity, man. Nobody was getting on it, it was getting really dirty. So, we rescued it, revived it man. Now that it's got all these bolts, everybody's sending it. Yeah, we did the world a big favor." Or how about, "Whoever bolted that slab did a crappy job. It was so run out, somebody was going to get hurt. We tamed it down. Again, we did the world a favor." Let's see, I guess our altruists assume the people for whom these benevolent deeds were performed weren't smart enough to recognize and avoid a dangerous climb. Maybe we should take the same approach to mountaineering routes and ski descents. Come to think of it, not many folks descending Liberty Ridge on boards these days...maybe we need to get a D-8 Cat up there and change the grade a little. Not a lot of folks climbing that obscure A4 pitch up on the Town Wall, and besides, it's dangerous. Maybe we should drill a bolt trail and "rescue" it from obscurity. Come to think of it, we could significantly increase traffic on the East Face of Monkey Face if we were to carve a lline of 5.7 buckets right up the middle. Hey, if I go do this, do I get to rename it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JayB: The only places where I think that run-out death routes are inappropriate are at crags frequented by large numbers of climbers and/or beginners. Boldness and commitment have their place but taking a piece of rock that could be enjoyed by a large number or climbers at a local crag and turning it into a mummified death-route [...] Anyhow, not only do I clip bolts I very often get gripped when doing so ( I was sort of hoping that I wouldn't after taking up trad/ice but unhappily, this has not been the case). If the first bolt is more than about 14 feet off the ground, it looks like I could ground out before clipping the second bolt, or it seems I'll fall a long way and/or hit something on the ground I admit that my pulse races, my feet start twitching, and my palms begin to sweat and the fear that I fear forces a concentration and focus, and generates a set of rewards that I've never felt on TR; and that's why I lead them. JayB, In the first part of your above-quoted post you decry climbs where people can get hurt. In the second part you describe the joy you find in climbing such routes. If a mentally and physically challenging climb is established in an area that subsequently becomes popular, are those that enjoy the challenging nature of that climb required to suffer the loss of their climb to ensure the safety of the newcomer beginners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 I am merely suggesting that the mental aspect of climbing is more than just fear. In fact on most “trad” routes I have very little fear at all. The mental stamina required to do a long series of difficult moves is very hard to come by. This is true whether you are climbing trad, sport or top rope. Indeed the mental concentration required to do a single power move can also be great. Just ask any power lifter. In general to the extent on aspect of climbing is emphasized on a route it is at the expense of the others. A person is under no obligation to like all aspects equally, so to expect a particular climbing experience to be equally rewarding to all is absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Peter, I completely agree, once again. In fact, every time I've failed on a difficult sport climb I've come to the immediate realization that I'm really stupid. But seriously, do you think there is an enormous difference betweem the mental challenges of leading (with the draw in place) vs. top-roping a typical sport climb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: In general to the extent on aspect of climbing is emphasized on a route it is at the expense of the others. A person is under no obligation to like all aspects equally, so to expect a particular climbing experience to be equally rewarding to all is absurd. Well said Peter. If a bolt is added to a climb, it will deemphasize one aspect of the climb at the expense of those who value that aspect. If the bolting is done well it will improve the climb in someone else's eyes. Like I posted before. There is a tradeoff. I think this is important to emphasize because I believe many bolting proponents fail to see any negative aspects of bolting. Without understanding that you are stepping on anyone's toes it is difficult to make decisions that are in the best interests of the community. It is understandable that bolting proponents could be diverted from the main issues with strawman arguments like the "ecological" problems with bolts. So if any of you bolting proponents are still reading this thread I will try to elucidate here my problem with bolts. I am NOT saying that I am against all bolts, or that I will never and have never clipped bolts. Bolts have opened up many climbs to me. If they were not there, I would not have enjoyed the climbs. There are also places where I would not like to see bolts, and places where bolts have detracted from my enjoyment of a climb. So, anyway, suppose you had one of those anti-gravity packs like Cap'n Caveman er.. Kirk on some Star Trek movie I heard about where he climbed El Cap. You have the pack shut off and go about climbing El Cap under your own power, until you slip, whoops, flick the switch, yell "falling" or whatever, and antigravity takes over, you're safe. Whew! Get back set on the rock. Say "climbing" and the pack shuts off and there you go again. If you get tired, just turn on the pack and float down to the bottom. Basically we have here an infinite toprope. No harm to the rock, no dignity beaten out of her. Would I want to climb with one of those gizmos? Hell ya! Sure I would. Sometimes. Sometimes, though, I would NOT want to use that pack, because you know why? It would take out much of the challenge. It would remove that mental aspect of commitment, that need to remove the fear from my head and make a rational decision of whether or not I can make that move 100%. So there's the rub with bolts. If you bolt, you've strapped an analogous safety device to that climb. Future climbers no longer have the choice of not bringing the pack along. And please don't say, "I could just skip the bolts"! That would be equivalent to climbing with the AG pack and promising to yourself that you won't turn it on, even if you are plummeting to your death. I'm not saying noone has the right to put bolts on climbs because I'll no longer be able to scare myself on them. I know people get their joys in many different ways. I firmly believe in the current FA ethic as the only currently practical blanket rule for this dilemna. I'm just letting you know what you'll be taking away if you put those bolts in, to help you make a more informed decision. [ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: chucK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Pope – They absolutely can be. For example the longest fall I have taken in the last 12 years was a botched clipped to a fixed draw at Little Si. If I was TRing I would have just cruised by the spot no need to stop and clip. By the way months ago I suggested that one thing that can be done to help reduce sport bolting was to encourage TRS as an valid means of FA. I was surprised that most responses to this idea were negative. Some of these responses were by member of the CC.com anti-bolt contingent. Would this help? Who knows for sure but since many claim that the vanity is one of the main drivers of sport bolters it might. It would surely discourage the addition of bolts at places like the Fun Forest where bolts were added to existing TRs. Do too many draws insult my intelligence? No, but maybe my aesthetic sense. Chuck – I was thinking of that Star Trek thing the other day! I want it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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