This is NOT another sport vs trad debate!

[Dwayner]

Hey Petey...nice poll. To be fair....YOU can only vote once and don't be calling all your friends.

 

Part of your confusion is that I actually presented two issues simultaneously.....sport-bolting (an environmental issue) and hang-dogging/rehearsal (a stylistic issue). They are separate, although related issues. What do they have in common? Both, in my opinion, are dubious manifestations of sport-climbing. The former is an issue because sport-climbing is bolt-dependent. The latter, of secondary importance, is stylistic. You're probably old enough to know that before sport-climbing became popular, that hang-dogging was considered poor-form. It meant that you weren't up for the route. Get strong and come back when you're ready.

The first is a major issue to the point where bolting has actually been banned here and there. The second issue is a matter of personal choice, but in poor form in my opinion.

The "legitimacy" of widespread indiscriminate bolting behavior along with what I consider to be dubious stylistic issues, were imported as part of the sport-climbing ethos. You might say, "adapt to progress", but I don't really consider it progress.

RUMR...you want to bring pope into this discussion???? He's an even bigger wise-acre than me!!!!!!!!

I'm bitchy???? How long have you been involved with cc.com.????.....I'm relatively well-behaved compared to a good bit of this crowd!

 

[minx]

RuMR said:

Ok...i'll go check w/ Trask and see if you're bad...

 

 

 

well trask thinks i'm very good.... so i suppose that means it's all relative

 

looks like little si.

[sk]

minx said:

hmmm...i'm on the way out the door to go clip some bolts. i'm going to have fun. does this make me a bad person?

 

HAVE FUN LUCKY

[RuMR]

Dwayner said:

Hey Petey...nice poll. To be fair....YOU can only vote once and don't be calling all your friends.

 

Part of your confusion is that I actually presented two issues simultaneously.....sport-bolting (an environmental issue) and hang-dogging/rehearsal (a stylistic issue). They are separate, although related issues. What do they have in common? Both, in my opinion, are dubious manifestations of sport-climbing. The former is an issue because sport-climbing is bolt-dependent. The latter, of secondary importance, is stylistic. You're probably old enough to know that before sport-climbing became popular, that hang-dogging was considered poor-form. It meant that you weren't up for the route. Get strong and come back when you're ready.

The first is a major issue to the point where bolting has actually been banned here and there. The second issue is a matter of personal choice, but in poor form in my opinion.

The "legitimacy" of widespread indiscriminate bolting behavior along with what I consider to be dubious stylistic issues, were imported as part of the sport-climbing ethos. You might say, "adapt to progress", but I don't really consider it progress.

RUMR...you want to bring pope into this discussion???? He's an even bigger wise-acre than me!!!!!!!!

I'm bitchy???? How long have you been involved with cc.com.????.....I'm relatively well-behaved compared to a good bit of this crowd!

 

 

APPLAUSE...he answered straight up! Even though i disagree with you, i see your points...I guess yo-yoing and team first ascents were also considered valid way back when i started climbing...so be careful when you drag history into it...

 

regarding coming back to some routes when you're ready...man, if i see a particular line that really really strikes my fancy, i won't touch it until i think i'm ready for it...other routes i know i will NEVER be able to do them in the fashion i want, BUT i still want to climb on them...So i climb on them...

 

Regarding Pope, i said he SOMETIMES puts his opinions out w/o being a jerk...

[RuMR]

minx said:

RuMR said:

Ok...i'll go check w/ Trask and see if you're bad...

 

 

 

well trask thinks i'm very good.... so i suppose that means it's all relative

 

looks like little si.

 

u r a scornful tease!!!

 

So what are you climbing at Si??

[Stefan]

People use bolts becuase they are afraid of falling too far.

 

People hangdog becuase they are afraid of falling too far.

 

I wish more class 4 sections were bolted because I am afraid of falling too far on those sections.

[RuMR]

That's not always true...

 

I hangdog cuz i'm too weak to bust it...its got nothing to do w/ being scared...

[Crackbolter]

snip from Dwayner:"in my opinion, are dubious manifestations of sport-climbing"

 

This is a classic statement!

 

Dwayner isn't old enough to realize that hangdogging was just aid climbing and was standard practice.

 

Yeah, I am a culprit of it all. I hangdog or aid climb or rehearse or whatever you what to label it. I expect no less from anyone else. Climbing is what it is, equal to ascending by whatever means necessary. Style is secondary to survival. One man's style is another man's creativity. The trend that Dwayner and Peter both refer to was not developed by either party but in a time when pipes, stovelegs and engine parts were still the best means of protection. I am thankful for bolts and SLCD's and good belayers. Aiding is almost necessary even in this day and age for difficult climbs. After inspection for safe and sound protection, only then should your gear route be considered for redpointing. Otherwise, expect aid.

Of course, this isn't the case with everyone and toproping is another option.

Bolts on the other hand is a matter of preference. Beat your chest for skipping a bolt or for chopping a bolt but in the long run, no one cares except the guy who drilled the holes.

The rest you can argue for eternity but the result is condescending.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2003 by Crackbolter

[mtngrrrl]

Carolyn,

 

Take your own sig's advice. I'd add to read Lynn Hill's book. Then go climbing some more. And most of all: have fun.

 

I started on trad, tried a little ice, added mountaineering, then added sport. I'm now dabbling with bouldering. It's all climbing. It's all fun. Cascade classics are fun. Smith is fun. The Calanques are fun. Chamonix is fun. The Gunks are fun. Via Ferratas are fun. Volcanoes are fun. Got climbing? Got fun.

 

These non-debate debates are not fun.

 

Remember, you said it first: Fuck the mind games, just climb.

[Dwayner]

mtngrrrrl says: "Got climbing? Got fun. These non-debate debates are not fun."

 

Drill bolts wherever the hell you feel like as long as it provides an easy opportunity for your amusement?...have fun. Ignore the environmental implications of such?....have fun.

 

Yes, these debates are not fun, in fact, they should challenge you to think about your beliefs and behavior. No, they are not non-debates; if that is what you believe, you obviously don't understand them.

 

Have fun!

 

[pope]

Peter_Puget said:

Don't confuse sport climbing with grid bolting. they are two different things.

 

PP

 

Bullshit, Private Pile. They are equivalent. And while we're at it, allow me to equate rap bolting with sward swallowing......ooops, I mean, aid climbing. That's right. Yes, yes! Rap bolting = aid climbing. Both require equivalent amounts of athletic ability (very little) and subatomic quantities of Courage....oh shit, was that an upper-case "C"? Aid climbing = crude engineering (in the words of Dick Cilley) = sport climbing (which doesn't even start from the bottom of the cliff..technically, it ain't climbing).

[minx]

pope said:

Peter_Puget said:

Don't confuse sport climbing with grid bolting. they are two different things.

 

PP

 

Bullshit, Private Pile. They are equivalent. And while we're at it, allow me to equate rap bolting with sward swallowing......ooops, I mean, aid climbing. That's right. Yes, yes! Rap bolting = aid climbing. Both require equivalent amounts of athletic ability (very little) and subatomic quantities of Courage....oh shit, was that an upper-case "C"? Aid climbing = crude engineering (in the words of Dick Cilley) = sport climbing (which doesn't even start from the bottom of the cliff..technically, it ain't climbing).

 

man pope, that is some serious harshness. good grief that means at least half the climbing i'm doing recently doesn't count and i should probably go slash my wrists or something

 

there's a place for all of it and don't even wave the enviromental impact card. that's a different albeit similar debate which i'll mostly concede.

 

last night i "climbed" (what's the term you want me to use if i didn't start it from the base of the cliff? ) a route that i could not have climbed if we had not built an anchor and dropped the rope. Sorry....i was pushing myself guess i should quit doing that eh? Part of the route doesn't take gear well and yes i AM afraid of falling. So unlike your polite counterparts in this debate i won't be. you're wrong...it's climbing and it's good.

[Peter_Puget]

Dwayner said:

Hey Petey...nice poll. To be fair....YOU can only vote once and don't be calling all your friends.

 

Part of your confusion is that I actually presented two issues simultaneously.....sport-bolting (an environmental issue) and hang-dogging/rehearsal (a stylistic issue). They are separate, although related issues. What do they have in common? Both, in my opinion, are dubious manifestations of sport-climbing. The former is an issue because sport-climbing is bolt-dependent. The latter, of secondary importance, is stylistic. You're probably old enough to know that before sport-climbing became popular, that hang-dogging was considered poor-form. It meant that you weren't up for the route. Get strong and come back when you're ready.

The first is a major issue to the point where bolting has actually been banned here and there. The second issue is a matter of personal choice, but in poor form in my opinion.

The "legitimacy" of widespread indiscriminate bolting behavior along with what I consider to be dubious stylistic issues, were imported as part of the sport-climbing ethos. You might say, "adapt to progress", but I don't really consider it progress.

RUMR...you want to bring pope into this discussion???? He's an even bigger wise-acre than me!!!!!!!!

I'm bitchy???? How long have you been involved with cc.com.????.....I'm relatively well-behaved compared to a good bit of this crowd!

 

 

 

LOL Dwayner cracks me up! This is Dwayner coming as close as his pride will let him admitting my earlier point that his argumentationt was a serious mess. Simply put it was not making much sense. I am glad you are trying to straghten it out now. I must say I wasn't surprised but a bit saddened by your personal attacks. This is our own goofy academy and although our discussions can be a bit con moto let's keep them freindly.

 

Dwayner here is an excerpt from a post of mine on page 4 of this thread: By combining two issues you make a mess of your argument and make your motivations suspect. Thanks for your second paragraph quoted above.

 

Of course you argument is still suspect. Sport bolting itself( I ask for a definition please!) to my mind isn't the issue. Imagine Vantage with only 6 sport routes. Not such a goofy mess. Many areas had climbing restrictions in the old days too. A more logical cause of the problem is simply over crowding and overcrowding isn't the same as sport climbing. For example some areas in Nor Cal (limestone) have several sport routes in place and tr anchors for tr routes.

 

Pope's comments are as usual full of vitriol and goofiness. Why he quotes Dick I am not sure but I can say that I have spent many hours bouldering and climbing sport routes with Dick. His main whine about sport routes is that many end in space rather than at a ledge/stance. To him this is a bogus route. The same would hold true to a crack which ended at a blank section.

 

PP

 

 

[Stefan]

Peter Puget.

 

I am not trying to inflict an argument--my writing skills suck so I would lose hand down.

 

I just to know. Really. And maybe you have answered this question before....but I do not know.

 

If there was a new 5.12 route that you saw with little or no places for protection, but you could have it toproped, would you toprope it or would you put bolts in?

 

 

[Peter_Puget]

Answer is it depends. But I would say the rating wouldn't matter very much in deciding. Honestly I am not out putting routes up very often but some of the factors I would consider would be how good the route was, was it a squeeze job, is there an easy way to set up a TR? Would putting in a lead route enable other routes nearby to be top roped.

 

You question leads me to think that you understand me to be arguing for bolts. I ask how do you come to that conclusion. What I am arguing for is an honest debate.

 

PP

[Stefan]

I don't think you argue for bolts. I believe you think there are appropriate places for bolts and there are appropriate places to leave an area totally clean. I think you arguing for style.

 

I can't climb 5.9 and above. Nor do I have the desire to climb higher grades--it's just not me. So when I am climbing 5.8 and below there are usually lots of opportunities to place pro.

 

So I thought to myself: I have seen routes that are bolted that could have been toproped. I thought a rope was there ONLY to catch a climber if they should fall--a backup mechanism. Why would a person NOT want to toprope if given the opportunity? Why would you want to fall 5-10 feet from a bolt? You could twist an ankle spanking a rock. Won't you still be falling off a difficult route if you toproped it? Why fall 5-10 feet when you could fall 1-2 feet?

 

I don't understand the logic of placing bolts when a person can toprope. I don't understand becuase I do not like falling and putting all my trust into rope, harness, the bolt, or for even that matter, a bomber anchor.

[mattp]

Stefan may not think you are arguing "for bolts," Peter, but you will be protrayed as "pro bolt" if you are engaged in a debate with the "anti-bolt" faction on cc.com. I'm with you on the call for "honest debate," however, and I'd also like to see more discussions of styles and ethics on this board. Unfortunately, however, both here and in the real world outside of cyberspace we seem generally unable to carry on reasoned discussions about sport vs trad, or bolts vs gear, or old school vs gym climbers. It's just too emotional.

 

Read back through endless threads on cc.com, or talk to someone who has been to a Frenchmen's Coulee Climber's Coalition meeting, or review the history of the bolt wars at various crags around the country and I think it is clear that it is the anti-bolt, anti-sport old-schoolers that are most often responsible for escalating the conflict to the point of absurdity and even occasional violence, but the fact is they have a point: power drilling is too easy and many climbers show no restraint in their bolting practices. These "mad bolters" (myself included) are leaving behind a permanent legacy. In some cases, I think we will look back and say "good job;" in others, "what a shame."

 

Looking at Washington State, there is a big difference in what is happening or has happened at places like Little Si and Washington Pass, Vantage and Darrington, or Icicle Creek and Index. These are all crag climbing areas, and all have historically seen both ground-up and top-down route development, of both "trad" and "sport" lines. Pope and Dwayner seem to suggest that, when it comes to bolted face climbing, its all shameless cowardly and aid unless somebody put it up on lead in traditional style. I respect their opinion as to what is good style, but I doubt there have been very many worthwhile new crag climbs put up in that traditional style in the last ten years at any of these crags. There have been a few perhaps, but a tiny number when compared to the number of excellent routes that have been established in the style that the old schoolers dismiss as completely worthless. Apart from any focus on the first ascent method, I bet 90% of today's climbers will flat out reject the suggestion that the existence of rap-bolted lines at Index, Washington Pass or Darrington (or a trend toward an increased acceptance of rap-bolting) have turned these areas into something akin to Vantage -- for most, the differences are just too great to even for a moment consider there may be some truth to these assertions.

 

I appreciate the suggestion that we as a climbing community examine the impact of our bolting practices, our crag development methods in general, and the impact on our sport that comes from a whole generation of climbers that come from gyms, where bouldering and climbing competitions are a major focus. The old schooler's are right when they tell us that bolting has gotten out of control, or that it is a very different thing to lead an unknown climb from the ground up than it is to pre-inspect and scrub and bolt it on rappel. But to state that "sport climbing is neither" just makes somebody sound like a dinosaur.

[Dwayner]

Dwayner responds to Petey.

 

PP:"LOL Dwayner cracks me up!"

D: Glad you're entertained, muchacho. Keep your "LOL" to a minimum, though, so the boss won't think you're wasting time on the job....unless you are the boss....then chuckle away.

 

PP:"This is Dwayner coming as close as his pride will let him admitting my earlier point that his argumentationt was a serious mess."

D: You know nothing of my pride or the boundaries thereof. This sort of impromptu personality analysis is what has gotten you into trouble before. I admit nothing other than that your inability to comprehend comprises "the mess" here.

 

PP:"Simply put it was not making much sense."

D:See last sentence of last comment.

 

PP:"I am glad you are trying to straghten it out now."

D:I'll assume you mean "straighten". I'll remember to use smaller words and less exotic punctuation when discussing this in the future.

 

PP:"I must say I wasn't surprised but a bit saddened by your personal attacks."

D: From the man who told Dwayner to "get a life"!

 

PP:"This is our own goofy academy and although our discussions can be a bit con moto let's keep them freindly."

D:I ain't angry. Looks pretty "freindly" around here!

 

 

PP:"Of course you argument is still suspect."

D: Again, see above.

 

PP: "Sport bolting itself( I ask for a definition please!) to my mind isn't the issue. Imagine Vantage with only 6 sport routes. Not such a goofy mess. Many areas had climbing restrictions in the old days too. A more logical cause of the problem is simply over crowding and overcrowding isn't the same as sport climbing. For example some areas in Nor Cal (limestone) have several sport routes in place and tr anchors for tr routes."

 

D:Sport climbing by its nature is bolt-dependent. Some of us think that bolts should at best be used sparingly if at all. Sport-climbing, in practice, typically involves lines of closely spaced bolts.

 

The simplicity of sport-climbing is attractive to the masses. Not that climbing can't be simple, but it is a fact that it's now possible to lead climbs with a minimum amount of knowledge or gear. In fact, it is now easier than ever to lead climbs that are way over one's ability. This is a result of sport-climbing's typical dependence on the dubious use of closely spaced "safe" bolts. The very nature of sport-climbing is such that it tends to proliferate. It's no doubt fun, but is it an enviromentally responsible thing to do? Alternatives to sport-bolting include top-roping which allows you to enjoy the moves without placing a line of bolts, or just leaving the rock alone, or finding a climb that can be led clean.

 

The "old days" aren't necessarily an issue. As "crackbolter" pointed out earlier, in the "old days" people did what ever they wanted, etc. You could pound pins wherever, cut down trees, whatever. Much of my opinion is based on what I consider to be a purer ethic; an ethic which had a burst of life in the early 70's, proliferated for about a decade, and has been shuffled aside quite a bit by sport-climbing. The ethic? Clean-climbing. Bolts are not clean. If you place them, even one, in my opinion, you should have a darn good reason for permanently altering the environment. Are there clear and fast rules? Not many. I find the gratuitious use of bolts to be a signature of sport-climbing (although the route "creators" probably do not feel this way or perhaps are simply unaware of the issue.) By the way, I really don't care if some of those '70's guys or whoever "weren't all that clean". It's a concept I'm interested in, whether it originated 100 years ago or last week.

 

The stylistic bit....the hangdogging and rehearsal.....it's secondary..it doesn't hurt anything, other than it appears to be another attractive quality of sport-climbing that enables it to proliferate. Hang-dog if you want, and some might think you're really cool (especially when you "suss it out", comb your hair back, and dip into that chalk bag), but others might find you a fool. I also consider it a bit of a silly game. Personally, I have more respect for a trad climber who can walk up to a 5.7 climb, place his own protection from the ground up, successfully complete it, and leave little trace, than for some guy who hangs off closely-spaced bolts for three weeks, trying to wire the moves, before finally "succeeding" and climbing a "5.13".

 

A prediction or speculation......perhaps in future decades....climbers will look back at the age of sport-climbing as an embarrassment. The free-wheeling proliferation of bolts characteristic of the game will be seen as yet another environmentally questionable practice of days gone by. Perhaps, then, there will be new means of protection that will leave no trace, that can be placed and removed at will, but will allow people to do as they please, although the stylistic issues will probably continue to be discussed.

 

PP:"Pope's comments are as usual full of vitriol and goofiness. Why he quotes Dick I am not sure but I can say that I have spent many hours bouldering and climbing sport routes with Dick. His main whine about sport routes is that many end in space rather than at a ledge/stance. To him this is a bogus route. The same would hold true to a crack which ended at a blank section."

 

D:Take it up with "pope".

 

- Dwayner...who's really starting to get bored.

 

P.S. Is "goofy" the word of the day?

 

 

 

 

[RuMR]

Hey Matt!

 

Virtually ALL of the hard overhanging steep roof sport routes at the NRG were put up on lead from the ground, specifically cuz you can't just lower on rap...its tooooo steep...where does this leave dwayner, pope et al w/ their arguments?? Were those guys chickenshit? Don't think so, as many of the routes involved BOLD climbing to establish them...complete w/ bone-breaking falls if you fuck up before the route goes in...i witnessed and put in some of these...

 

Flip side of this coin is the tennessee wall....no bolts there, and everything was led ground up...hard ass shit there too...

 

These can in no way, be considered anything else except sport routes...?????????????????????? CONFUSED ??????????????

 

sitmo is too muddy to appease extremists on either side of the argument...in my very stupid opinion...

[Dwayner]

Minx say:

"man pope, that is some serious harshness. good grief that means at least half the climbing i'm doing recently doesn't count and i should probably go slash my wrists or something"

 

Dwayner say: Dang, gurl! Don't slash your wrists! You don't need the approval of myself or pope to go sport-climbing! You can think we're lame or vice-versa! Consider this topic an educational experience and make your own choices accordingly.

 

Minx say: "last night i "climbed" (what's the term you want me to use if i didn't start it from the base of the cliff? ) a route that i could not have climbed if we had not built an anchor and dropped the rope."

 

Dwayner say: Top-roping's good...better than clipping sport-bolts.

 

Minx say: "Sorry....i was pushing myself guess i should quit doing that eh? "

 

Dwayner say: Only, I suppose, if you are in dire need of "pope"'s approval. Maybe he can answer that.

 

Minx say: "you're wrong...it's climbing and it's good."

 

Dwayner say: one of many opinions.

 

aloha! - "Dwayner"

 

P.S. No, I am not "pope", although he is my climbing buddy.

 

 

[RuMR]

Dwayner said:

Minx say:

"man pope, that is some serious harshness. good grief that means at least half the climbing i'm doing recently doesn't count and i should probably go slash my wrists or something"

 

Dwayner say: Dang, gurl! Don't slash your wrists! You don't need the approval of myself or pope to go sport-climbing! You can think we're lame or vice-versa! Consider this topic an educational experience and make your own choices accordingly.

 

Minx say: "last night i "climbed" (what's the term you want me to use if i didn't start it from the base of the cliff? ) a route that i could not have climbed if we had not built an anchor and dropped the rope."

 

Dwayner say: Top-roping's good...better than clipping sport-bolts.

 

Minx say: "Sorry....i was pushing myself guess i should quit doing that eh? "

 

Dwayner say: Only, I suppose, if you are in dire need of "pope"'s approval. Maybe he can answer that.

 

Minx say: "you're wrong...it's climbing and it's good."

 

Dwayner say: one of many opinions.

 

aloha! - "Dwayner"

 

P.S. No, I am not "pope", although he is my climbing buddy.

 

 

Gotta admit Dwayner always says you think what you want, and i'll think what i want...Credit it 2 u...

[mattp]

Indeed, RuMR. It is a complicated world out there, especially when you start talking about style and ethics.

[erik]

DWYANER I HEARD A RUMOR ONCE YOU NAILED A POPULAR FREE ROUTE.

 

HOW CLEAN OF AN ETHIC IS THAT?

 

 

[Greg_W]

Dwayner said:

mtngrrrrl says: "Got climbing? Got fun. These non-debate debates are not fun."

 

Drill bolts wherever the hell you feel like as long as it provides an easy opportunity for your amusement?...have fun. Ignore the environmental implications of such?....have fun.

 

Yes, these debates are not fun, in fact, they should challenge you to think about your beliefs and behavior. No, they are not non-debates; if that is what you believe, you obviously don't understand them.

 

Have fun!

 

100% Agree. Way to go, Dwayner.

[RuMR]

you might change your mind monday? maybe, maybe not...my guess is that you will find it fun...maybe not enough to change your mind, maybe enough? Time will tell...