This is NOT another sport vs trad debate!

[Attitude]

....

[Dwayner]

Petey.say:

"Dumbed-down, eh? Hell yes I say weenie route! Compared to such routes as Twilight Zone - Oh wait now that's been "dumbed down" too. Damn all my impressive feats of yesterday are being dumbed down! These young guns will never be impressed."

 

Dwayner say: The issue at its core has to do with excessive use of PERMANENT anchors followed by unlimited rehearsal to wire climbs that would otherwise be way over your head. It's not about whether or not trad, clean gear is easy to place.

 

"Did you clip pre-placed gear? Did you leave all your stuff in the crack for the next guy?"

Petey say: "Nope but I never once worried about pro or the fall something I have worried about on sport routes."

 

Dwayner comments: The issue isn't about having to worry or not, although sport climbs seem to attract people because of that factor.

 

"Did you hang all over it because it was too hard for you?"

Petey say: Mea Culpa But I went back to shred it. (See bit about it being a weenie route above).

 

Dwayner replies: Yah...."shredded"!

 

 

- Dwayner

 

 

 

[Dwayner]

Attitude said:

A top roped....

 

The same issues apply except for the destruction of the rock. Top-roping is environmentally superior to drilling and clipping closely-placed bolts. On a relative scale, it's even less scary than sport-climbing unless you have to go for a big swing. But unlimited rehearsals by Richard Simmons and others can produce the results already described whether on top-rope, sport or trad. Hang-doggin on trad (removable) protection is not a part of the traditional ethic although it seems that some people do it as the stylistic trad standards have been dumbed down too. (But tradsters are ideally removing their refuse when they're done.) The month-long 60 ft. 5.14 goes hand in hand with sport-climbing and it's gratuitous use of bolts.

[Peter_Puget]

Dwayner said:

Dwayner say: The issue at its core has to do with excessive use of PERMANENT anchors followed by unlimited rehearsal to wire climbs that would otherwise be way over your head. It's not about whether or not trad, clean gear is easy to place.

 

 

hmm so I can bolt all I want if I "shred" the route quickly.

 

But I must say thatI find excessive bolts ugly regardless of how long people work on a route.

 

Dwayner, this quotes makes me realize just how far removed you are from real climbing as opposed to armchair pontificating. clean gear is easy to place That is simply not always true. Placing clean gear can be an art - one that is difficult to learn. If your missing this, think about what else you are missing!

 

PP

[slaphappy]

Now Pete, you remember what happened last time you and Dwayner started this kind of banter... some people will never quite get it.

[Peter_Puget]

Dwayner's not bad and neither is Peter. I just need to lure him out for a weekend at Smith.

[iain]

he could play the entertaining game of chopping bolts on churning and see if he can make it across the bridge before having his head ripped off.

 

five gallon buckets protects well with the larger big bros I hear!

[slaphappy]

Peter_Puget said:

Dwayner's not bad and neither is Peter. I just need to lure him out for a weekend at Smith.

 

I'll drive...

[Rodchester]

clean gear is easy to place That is simply not always true. Placing clean gear can be an art - one that is difficult to learn.

 

I agree....but....do you learn it by hang dogging on sport routes and relying on bomber fixed gear, like bolts?

 

[Peter_Puget]

Well the smart ass answer is: It can be - If it is a bolted crack!

 

But Rod I was referring to how weenie trad climbing has become. I was not directly commenting on Sport climbing. But check out the attachment for one example of how Sport Climbing can rock!

 

PP

[Dwayner]

Petey say:

"hmm so I can bolt all I want if I "shred" the route quickly. But I must say thatI find excessive bolts ugly regardless of how long people work on a route. Dwayner, this quotes makes me realize just how far removed you are from real climbing as opposed to armchair pontificating. clean gear is easy to place That is simply not always true. Placing clean gear can be an art - one that is difficult to learn. If your missing this, think about what else you are missing! "

 

Huh???? Petey...your comments above clearly demonstrate that you didn't understand what I was saying.

As far as me being "far removed"...that's sheer ignorance. I've been climbing actively for 30 years (both professionally and recreationally) and have been aware of the various issues throughout this time, and continue to be very much involved in the activity.

 

- Dwayner

 

[Dwayner]

Petey....I just figured out what part of your problem is.....you didn't read my sentence the way it was intended. I wrote: "It's not about whether or not trad, clean gear is easy to place." Notice the comma. as in "trad [and] clean" gear. I never said, "Clean gear is easy to place.". That would be a ridiculous statement. In fact, there are plenty of examples of bolted climbs next to cracks because the cracks are hard to protect trad while free-climbing. So, the climb is dumbed down with bolts.

 

Read.....more ....carefully.

 

- Dwayner

 

[gapertimmy]

[Rodchester]

P2:

 

Well the smart ass answer is: It can be - If it is a bolted crack!

 

Touchee.... Really, I have NO problem at all with sport climbing. I'll clip bolts and will push harder on bolts than I do on trad.

 

That doesn't mean that my trad climbing is whimpy. My trad climbing is whimpy...because I suck. But I have fun at both. Though, I am not a sporto kind of guy, I do enjoy it as a sport. Comparing them is kind of doing the aples to oranges thing.

 

What I am COMPLETELY against is bolting lines that are protectable, especially in trad areas and alpine areas.

 

Just have a good time, be safe, and enviro friendly.

[Dwayner]

Sport climbing is utterly bolt-dependent so it's not enviro-friendly.

[Peter_Puget]

Dwayner

 

Thanks for the clarification. I guess you agree with my first comment.

 

Timmy -

 

This debate is over because I am saying my typing for quality posts in the NEW ROCK CLIMBING FORUM!

 

PP

[RuMR]

hhhhmmm

 

My name is Dwayner aka theGrandmasterTradIcouldClimbHarderthanUif'nIworkedAsLongAsYouOnthatRoute...

 

I also could run a sub 3:40 mile if i really really focused and trained and dedicated myself to it...shoot, those olympic guys are wusses...now where's that beer (Only mickey's fo' me) and my remote control...gotta catch richard simmon's latest workout...

[RuMR]

Dwayner said:

Sport climbing is utterly bolt-dependent so it's not enviro-friendly.

 

Bouldering doesn't require any bolts...

[Stefan]

Dwayner said:

"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!"

 

Exactly! You're starting to catch on!!

 

DWAYNER! I HAVE SEEN YOU CLIMB THE BOLT LADDER ON MONKEY FACE......AND YOU CALLED IT "CLIMBING"

[RuMR]

Stefan said:

Dwayner said:

"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!"

 

Exactly! You're starting to catch on!!

 

DWAYNER! I HAVE SEEN YOU CLIMB THE BOLT LADDER ON MONKEY FACE......AND YOU CALLED IT "CLIMBING"

 

bawhahahahahahahaha

[Rodchester]

DWAYNER! I HAVE SEEN YOU CLIMB THE BOLT LADDER ON MONKEY FACE......AND YOU CALLED IT "CLIMBING"

 

But, but, but.....

 

I would hardly call that sport climbing though. I doubt many, if any sportos would either.

[Dwayner]

Rodchester said:

DWAYNER! I HAVE SEEN YOU CLIMB THE BOLT LADDER ON MONKEY FACE......AND YOU CALLED IT "CLIMBING"

 

But, but, but.....

 

I would hardly call that sport climbing though. I doubt many, if any sportos would either.

 

Yes, and I recognize it for what it is......aid climbing....and probably half of those bolts on Monkey Face should go.

[Rodchester]

Yes, and I recognize it for what it is......aid climbing....and probably half of those bolts on Monkey Face should go.

 

Its been a while since I've been on it....but my recollection is that more than a few of the "bolts" are going, very slowly, but going.

 

[Fence_Sitter]

RuMR said:

hhhhmmm

 

My name is Dwayner aka theGrandmasterTradIcouldClimbHarderthanUif'nIworkedAsLongAsYouOnthatRoute...

 

I also could run a sub 3:40 mile if i really really focused and trained and dedicated myself to it...shoot, those olympic guys are wusses...now where's that beer (Only mickey's fo' me) and my remote control...gotta catch richard simmon's latest workout...

 

no you couldn't... believe me... i was down under 4:20 and they said i would never get much below 4:00... ever... only a very select few can.... 5.13? probably, but 5.15 ne eh there is a difference anyone can run say 4:30, but not under 4:00... everyon can climb 5.13 but not 5.15... (obvious qualifiers on everyone)

[RuMR]

Fence_Sitter said:

RuMR said:

hhhhmmm

 

My name is Dwayner aka theGrandmasterTradIcouldClimbHarderthanUif'nIworkedAsLongAsYouOnthatRoute...

 

I also could run a sub 3:40 mile if i really really focused and trained and dedicated myself to it...shoot, those olympic guys are wusses...now where's that beer (Only mickey's fo' me) and my remote control...gotta catch richard simmon's latest workout...

 

no you couldn't... believe me... i was down under 4:20 and they said i would never get much below 4:00... ever... only a very select few can.... 5.13? probably, but 5.15 ne eh there is a difference anyone can run say 4:30, but not under 4:00... everyon can climb 5.13 but not 5.15... (obvious qualifiers on everyone)

 

I think you missed my sarcasm by a MILE...and I don't think that many will be climbing 5.13+...

 

My point was that its piss ez to sit back and say that "BLAH blah blah, given enough time, wiring moves, blah blah blah I could do it too, blah blah blah..." than to actually go out and do it...another way of saying the proof is in the pudding...