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dryad

Hey mountie bashers

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catbirdseat said:

The solution is to get into the habit of always showing your belayer your tie-in knot. I know it may not seem very cool or whatnot, but it could save your life.

 

Fuck that, baby! There is nothing more cool than the check-double-check routine. Uncool is pancaking from the crux and earning a free helicopter ride. thumbs_down.gif

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The bowline is one of the strongest knots. I think the strongest is the fishermans bend or some such (not the figure 8).

 

The reason the figure 8 is preffered in climbing is because it slips. In this slipping much force is dissipated, thus softening the fall. This is also the reason you should be backing up the knot with a rolling hitch. I've seen many people just tie a figure 8 with 6 inches of tail or so. This has always worked for them, so they figure it's Ok, but it's not. Sure it works for short falls, but take that huge 50 ft whip and it'll slide right through.

 

A bowline doesn't do that.

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What I do is use a double loop bowline, so as to build in some slippage potential for easier untying afterward. Backed up with a double overhand, of course.

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I've seen many people just tie a figure 8 with 6 inches of tail or so. This has always worked for them, so they figure it's Ok, but it's not. Sure it works for short falls, but take that huge 50 ft whip and it'll slide right through.

 

Didn't happen to me. I think that people like and use the figure eight not because of any energy absorption qualities but because it is easy to learn.

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hmm I haven't heard the slipping idea before. I thought the 8 was used because it is very obvious when it is tied incorrectly and it's easy to remember.

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Sloth_Man said:This is also the reason you should be backing up the knot with a rolling hitch. I've seen many people just tie a figure 8 with 6 inches of tail or so. This has always worked for them, so they figure it's Ok, but it's not. Sure it works for short falls, but take that huge 50 ft whip and it'll slide right through.

 

A bowline doesn't do that.

That's news to me. Can you provide a reference?

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Hey moderator(s). This threat started out about the Mountaineers, but on page 2 the discussion changed to that of tie-in knots. It might be good to cleave this off as a new thread starting with DFA's post. Call it "Tie-In Knots" or something.

 

"Actually, why would you use a figure 8 to tie in when the DBBB is smaller and you can actually untie it after dogging the hell out of some savage project? The fig. 8 is old-school, yo; get with the newness. "

 

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I was wondering where I thought I'd learned that thing about the slipping, and I really don't remember.

 

But the deal about the bowline being one of the strongest knots is true and can be read in any sailors book of knots.

 

In the old days bowlines were used routinely. Just look at old photos of Chuck Pratt (I know 'who the frick is that?'). So climbers started out using the bowline. I don't know when it started to change. It was always my understanding that they went to the figure eight because the bowline didn't absorb any force by slipping.

 

For what it's worth I've seen bowlines slip through with several inches of tail when loaded hard on a sailboat, so it wouldn't surprise me to see a figure 8 do the same. Always tie in the back up, even on the bowline.

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Check this out. I can't vouch for the source.

 

RELATIVE STRENGTH OF KNOTS

 

No knot, 100%

Clove hitch, 60-65%

Figure eight, 75-80%

Overhand, 60-65%

Bowline, 70-75%

Two half hitches, 60-65%

Double fisherman's 65-70%

Square knot, 43-47%

Water knot, 60-70%

Gordian knot, N/A

Fisherman's, 60-65%

 

http://www.amc-ny.org/rec_actv/canoe/pstx0797.html#knots3

 

Did you know that there is a hitch called a No Knot? It consists of four wraps of rope around any object, such as a BFT or a BFR (Big F'in Tree) or (Big F'in Rock).

 

Note they are not talking about a REWOVEN figure eight, but rather as a stopper knot.

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RuMR said:

Fair enough...

 

so...what do you tie in w/?

A figger ate. I don't like the bowline, but I'm cool with people who do. Whatever works.

 

I haven't ever climbed with an unfinished knot, but I have found myself up there without my harness double-backed. It reminded me that I had gotten lax about double checking.

 

Did you know that there is a hitch called a No Knot? It consists of four wraps of rope around any object, such as a BFT or a BFR (Big F'in Tree) or (Big F'in Rock).

The Mountaineers teach the wrap 3/pull 2 option for setting up quick, strong rescue anchors. Wait a minute, that could be anti-bashing...

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It's simple - the rabbit comes outta the hole, around the tree, and back down the hole. Finish off with clove hitch or some similar shit. I'll tell y'all what, I've held 30 ft., 12,000 lb. boats in heavy seas on a buoy with a 3/8" braided line and a single, properly tied bowline...I'd trust my life to it any day. the_finger.gif

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fact is the fig-8 is the best knot and only wankers who want to be "different" use the bowline to show off boxing_smiley.gif

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Fig 8 doesn't slip - where did you hear that crap madgo_ron.gif???...it self tightens during loading...so it doesn't really need a backup if tied correctly (at least 4" tail).

Edited by Coopah

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Hey CBS...take those strength percentages with a grain of salt. In other words don't believe everything you read. I tie in with a bowline both for climbing & in my rescue duties. The strength difference is negligible between a bowline & fig 8. Those that say otherwise are full of it. yellaf.gif

Edited by Coopah

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catbirdseat said:

 

Did you know that there is a hitch called a No Knot? It consists of four wraps of rope around any object, such as a BFT or a BFR (Big F'in Tree) or (Big F'in Rock).

 

 

It is also referred to as a High strength Tie off in rescue community. This is to maintain the full strength of the rope in certain situations where high forces will be applied.

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thelawgod said:

The Mounties suck goat balls! They’re a perfectly fine organization if you dig climbing with troglodyte like motherfuckers who exhibit between zero and no personality, and are generally dumb as a sack of dead snaffles!

 

Look, I generalize here--there are a few cool Mounties--SEF for one; but the majority that I have met (and I’ve been acquainted with many), were single individuals whose personalities certainly accounted for their singleness. I categorize Mountie personalities as follows:

 

Hitler Complex:

“You skinning little shit! You know nothing! Fuck your bolen as a tie in knot!!! You must use the rewoven figure-8 because the bolen isn’t in mein bible “The Freedom of the Hills”. I am your Fuhrer--worship me!

 

Psycho:

“Yeah, like I once knew this guy you fell and, like totally smashed his face—hehe, it was cool.”

 

Bragger:

“I like totally didn’t join the Mountaineers because I needed to learn anything—I’ve been climbing for years. Like, last week I totally redpointed Saber on Castle Rock!”

 

Tries to be cool by dropping names of actual cool people met:

“Like I was totally taking to Jim Nelson the other day—you know Jim? Oh he’s like this totally cool dude; I talk to him at this store all the time. Anyway, Jim and I were discussing conditions, and….”

“I was up at Muir the other day and like ran into Mike Gautier. Yeah, I know Mike—read his book and everything; guy’s totally sweeeet! I’ll introduce you to him sometime—we’re like best buddies.”

 

Tries to be cool by acknowledging other's accomplishments:

“So like my friend last year climbed Denali—sweet huh?”

“I have a friend who’s LEAD Outerspace”

“My cousin summited Rainier last year--yeah, with RMI--he clicked w/Geo Dunn—they might climb together privately”

 

Horny (Desperate):

“So like, maybe when this class is done, we can climb together sometime. I have a car. I’ll pay for gas. What do you say? Maybe I could call you tonight—you know, get some dates one the calendar. Are you married?”

 

Liar:

“I was so totally one of Dan -’s timers.”

“I think 5.10 is like so easy”

“I soloed Rainier (almost).”

“I AM Dan -.”

 

Ok, so these categories aren’t necessarily limited to Mounties (seems like half the Pub clubbers fit into these categories as well). I’m mostly just entertaining myself here folks, don’t take me too seriously.

 

This is one of the funniest things I've seen on this site. We have all done at least one of these stupid things at least once. Come on now, adnit it!!

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Hey do the Mounties have a Womens only climbing course

That would be fun

I would volunteer to help: you see in Canada we have a saying "The Mounties always get their man"

I wouldn't mind being the man smirk.gif

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Coopah said:

catbirdseat said:

 

Did you know that there is a hitch called a No Knot? It consists of four wraps of rope around any object, such as a BFT or a BFR (Big F'in Tree) or (Big F'in Rock).

 

 

It is also referred to as a High strength Tie off in rescue community. This is to maintain the full strength of the rope in certain situations where high forces will be applied.

The only problem is that the other end of the rope will eventually have to be tied to something such as a biner and for that you need, ta da, A KNOT. So after you have tied a figure eight loop, or perhaps a figure nine loop, you've introduced a weak link. That's not to say the high strength tie off isn't swell. It happens to be quick and easy to tie as well as strong.

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the high-strength tie off is frequently used to tension tracklines in highlines. no, there is no knot at any end. everything is attached with prusiks to maintain full strength of the line. the prusik attachment provides a "clutch" which starts to slip at a known force, rather than catastrophic failure at a knot.

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iain said:

the high-strength tie off is frequently used to tension tracklines in highlines. no, there is no knot at any end. everything is attached with prusiks to maintain full strength of the line. the prusik attachment provides a "clutch" which starts to slip at a known force, rather than catastrophic failure at a knot.

As Mike Myers used to say, "I did not know that". Cool.

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yeah it's a pretty cool but still possible to over-tension the line pretty easily if you don't follow a few rules.

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Iain is correct. I didn't want to go into detail too much other wise i would have to put on a class about it... wink.gif

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