short draw question

[Luna]

I was climbing at JT a few weeks ago and watched a guide lead his client up a steep face climb that was bolted. The bolts were in a pretty straight line. The guide just clipped a biner to each bolt and then the rope. I would have been inclined to put a short quick draw on them, or at least one biner on the bolt, clip another biner to the first, and clip the rope to the second biner. But I can't think of a specific reason not to do it the way the guide did it. Is there a problem with just clipping a bolt and the rope to the same biner?

[JoshK]

Well, I definitely wouldn't clip one biner to another as you suggest. I also wouldn't do what the guide did either, but I can't think of a very specific reason not to, just that it doesn't sound like the greatest idea. I could possible see the biner getting heavily crossloaded in the bolt hanger if it jimmies itself around in some way and then takes a load. More than anything, I believe a short draw gives an added piece of safety that I'm more than happy to have.

[erik]

actually josh

 

the runner and the second biner add more points of failure to the system. but that of course therorehtical.

 

but yeah like you echoed no point in not adding a draw.

 

guides make me laugh

 

 

[freeclimb9]

Using one biner ups the chances of the biner getting torqued. Don't know why someone would do that for a whole pitch, but guides are highly trained professionals.

[iain]

doesn't take much of a change in direction to introduce some horrendous rope drag too, even if in a fairly straight line.

[bobinc]

Sounds like a poorly paid guide...

[Dru]

AMGA is not recognized by UIAGM anyhow

"everyone's a guide"

hell Trask could call himself a guide if he wanted, the only law out there is caveat emptor

[JoshK]

erik said:

actually josh

 

the runner and the second biner add more points of failure to the system. but that of course therorehtical.

 

but yeah like you echoed no point in not adding a draw.

 

guides make me laugh

 

 

Yes, definitely, I should have made that clear. In the case mentioned, however, I would gladly take the extra point of failure added by the draw (which I would consider unlikely to fail) over the possibility of a biner getting stuck up in a bolt hanger and loaded in some strange way.

[iain]

I believe if you are AMGA certified in rock, ski, and alpine you have UIAGM reciprocity. But how long will they put up with this when UIAGM internationals get booted off our mountains for trying to do their jobs?

[bird]

Luna said:

I was climbing at JT a few weeks ago and watched a guide lead his client up a steep face climb that was bolted. The bolts were in a pretty straight line. The guide just clipped a biner to each bolt and then the rope. I would have been inclined to put a short quick draw on them, or at least one biner on the bolt, clip another biner to the first, and clip the rope to the second biner. But I can't think of a specific reason not to do it the way the guide did it. Is there a problem with just clipping a bolt and the rope to the same biner?

 

I have seen only one person do this. He also clipped the rope the wrong way through a biner. When he was going to clip the next bolt the rope popped out of the biner below him, so he was looking at a grounder at that point.

[Luna]

OK - here's the interesting part. The guide was Bob Gaines - co-author with John Long of "Climbing Anchors", no slouch. Maybe he was not even concerned with the possibility of a fall. It was only 5.10c.

[fern]

this is such an important and new discussion I hope it goes to 16 pages.

[Dru]

well what is the correct length draw to use then? metric 9cm or imperial 4"??

 

anyways guides are suck and aid and you often only use a biner when aid climbing not a draw so it must be ok

[daler]

Anybody can call themselves a doctor as well, but would you have anybody cut into you with out checking their background?

The AMGA is an international reconized organization!

 

 

 

 

[daler]

Luna,

 

How do you the guide was a guide. like dru said anybody can call themselves a guide. Did you check his amga cards? Did you ask who he works for? Did you ask if he had insurance?

[snoboy]

Dru said:

AMGA is not recognized by UIAGM anyhow

"everyone's a guide"

hell Trask could call himself a guide if he wanted, the only law out there is caveat emptor

 

AMGA is UIAGM recognized nowadays, at least to the same extent that ACMG is. You do Ski and Alpine and you are a guide.

[Luna]

Bob was clearing giving his student a lesson, an advanced lesson. He owns Vertical Adventures I think it's called. The guy's a hot shot. I'm just curious about the clip but haven't heard a reson not to do it this way other than the biner might twist.

[freeclimb9]

daler said:

Anybody can call themselves a doctor as well, but would you have anybody cut into you with checking their background?

Some of us actually are doctors. But is that an MD, JD, or PhD? Give me the knife!

 

[daler]

Well if he did what you described I would not call him a hotshot. Maybe a hothead. That is definately not something you should teach a student. The only time you should use a single biner is if it is your last resort then you should use a locker. Or to keep you off a ledge close to the belay, but really how many places is a few inches going to help you.

 

dale

[Luna]

It does beg a question, doesn't it? All I know is that he danced up this thing like he didn't need a rope.

[catbirdseat]

I would never do what that guide did. The quick draws do two things: 1) the sling can twist allowing the load to come from any direction without cross loading the biner on the bolt hanger, 2) they reduce rope drag. This is not a major issue on most sport routes, but can be.

 

There may be a few specific situations where what the guide did would be safe, but the student wouldn't necessarily be able to judge what those would be. It's just better to use draws and not have to think about it.

[catbirdseat]

Luna said:

It does beg a question, doesn't it? All I know is that he danced up this thing like he didn't need a rope.

Yes, and he probably could have free soloed it too. But he is supposed to be teaching. His techniques should have been exactly as he would expect his student to use at the student's skill level.

[klenke]

Seems like if you fell--especially a considerable distance--when climbing without the sewn part of the quickdraw in the system (i.e., one 'biner only as the guide has done here) that there would be more of a chance of one or more of the instantly-loaded 'biners snapping right at the bolt/'biner interface. The sewn part would act as a means to absorb some of that energy, albeit a little bit. Plus, the torque is increased in this method, which would further increase the likelihood of a brittle failure. Bolts are made of steel. (Most) carabiners are made of aluminum. Carabiners will break first.

 

It seems using a quickdraw helps most to create a flexibility in a line to go here and go there without having to worry about getting on the wrong side of a bolt or having the 'biner rotate around the bolt hole.

 

Heck, I don't know. If he had fallen, maybe the proof of it being a bad idea would have been in the pudding...or in the crater at the base of the climb.

 

"The proof is in the pudding"? What kind of stupid saying is that anyway?

[Winter]

catbirdseat said:

Luna said:

It does beg a question, doesn't it? All I know is that he danced up this thing like he didn't need a rope.

Yes, and he probably could have free soloed it too. But he is supposed to be teaching. His techniques should have been exactly as he would expect his student to use at the student's skill level.

 

Since when is a guide supposed to be teaching? Unless its specifically designed for instruction, the guide is supposed to get you up and down without dying. Whoops ... check that ... guess the poster thought we was trying to teach.

 

Seems to me that clipping to the bolt is a big pain inthe ass for the follower.

Edited March 26, 2003 by Winter

[iain]

klenke said:

"The proof is in the pudding"? What kind of stupid saying is that anyway?

comes from "the proof of the pudding is in the eating." from Don Quixote.