Greg_W Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 Jim said: RobBob said: From a war standpoint, the protests only take away from the image of a determined adversary I look at the demonstrations as a sign of what we suupposedly stand for, the ability to voice an opinion in a democratic society. Passivity in a society is not a good thing. Democracy is supposed to be a mix of voices, not a sing-a-long. To a degree, Jim. In a democratic republic, the majority voice carries, and once a decision is made ALL have to abide by it. That's how it works. So, I agree with dissent and voicing of opinions; however, I also think that once a decision is made, it should be supported as America's position. We are all Americans, no matter who wants to say "I didn't vote for GWB, I didn't vote for a war, blah, blah, blah." A note on "supporting" our troops: Separate the policy from the personnel. You can still support the soldiers representing and fighting in the name of The United States of America and not agree with the action taken. I know they would appreciate it. Greg W Quote
erik Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 Greg_W said: Jim said: RobBob said: From a war standpoint, the protests only take away from the image of a determined adversary I look at the demonstrations as a sign of what we suupposedly stand for, the ability to voice an opinion in a democratic society. Passivity in a society is not a good thing. Democracy is supposed to be a mix of voices, not a sing-a-long. To a degree, Jim. In a democratic republic, the majority voice carries, and once a decision is made ALL have to abide by it. That's how it works. So, I agree with dissent and voicing of opinions; however, I also think that once a decision is made, it should be supported as America's position. We are all Americans, no matter who wants to say "I didn't vote for GWB, I didn't vote for a war, blah, blah, blah." A note on "supporting" our troops: Separate the policy from the personnel. You can still support the soldiers representing and fighting in the name of The United States of America and not agree with the action taken. I know they would appreciate it. Greg W greg i call bullshit on we ALL have to abide. it does not say that anywhere in the constitution or the bill of rights. Quote
iain Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 agreed. non-violent protest has always been a part of this nation's history. Quote
Jim Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 Greg - I partially agree with you, and it's good to see that you see the distinction between protesting a policy and supporting the safety of the guys on the line. I don't agree with the folks who say you're a commie if you protest policy. But one point - a majority of the voters did not vote for Bushy. Quote
iain Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 erik said: but jim all the rich people did! actually quite a few poor suckers did too. esp. in the midwest. Quote
Greg_W Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 Jim said: But one point - a majority of the voters did not vote for Bushy. Not to harsh on you, Jim, but I think this is a prime example of the misconception that MANY people have about the architecture of our government and how elections work in the United States. Article II of the Constitution breaks down how Electors are chosen and how each State's Electors shall execute their responsibilities. Each State votes from among the choices of national candidates; with a few exceptions, the corresponding Electors from those States mimic that vote in THEIR vote that is submitted to the President of the Senate. It is by the tabulation of the votes of the Electors that the President and Vice President are elected. This system was set in place by the Founding Fathers to provide some measure of protection for the small states from the large states; it strikes a balance. So, while you may assert that "a majority of the voters did not vote for Bush[sic]", that is an irrelavent argument; it is the vote of the Electors (or Electoral College) that selects the President based on the voters' voices in each state. This is a prime characteristic of a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC versus a pure democracy. Greg W Quote
Greg_W Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 erik said: greg i call bullshit on we ALL have to abide. it does not say that anywhere in the constitution or the bill of rights. Call bullshit all you want, Erik. That is a fundamental tenet of republican (small 'r') democracy (which is what the U.S. is). Laws are passed by the majority and applied to ALL. Similarly are decisions (Executive Orders, Policy Changes, etc.) made by the Executive Branch Administration; the Administration was elected by a majority of Electors (as per the Constitution, Article II). Now, this is MY opinion and belief and interpretation of republican/representative democracy; you can form your own opinions and live by them. Greg W Quote
iain Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 Ah the charming GregW government lesson, teaching the ignorant masses how our country works. have not seen one in awhile. I think erik is saying the right to protest this total garbage of an administration is fundamental. Don't want to put words in his mouth though, I'm sure he's got plenty to say on his own. Quote
Jim Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 Thanks for the civics lesson greg - but I was responding to your implied point that the voters put Bush in place, he made the decision, so back off. If we're all supposed to sit on our hands after a decision is made and just nod like bobbleheads then decisions will always be made for and by the elite. Quote
Greg_W Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 iain said: Ah the charming GregW government lesson, teaching the ignorant masses how our country works. have not seen one in awhile. I think erik is saying the right to protest this total garbage of an administration is fundamental. Don't want to put words in his mouth though, I'm sure he's got plenty to say on his own. Helps to have a pocket version of The Constitution by the computer . I never said anything about Erik's right to protest; I fully support the exercising of your 1st Amendment rights. Just stating my opinion on the matter. Quote
Jim Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war. . . . we shall also do our part to build a world of peace where the weak are safe and the strong are just." - John F. Kennedy (Link) "Today I weep for my country. I have watched the events of recent months with a heavy, heavy heart. No more is the image of America one of a strong yet benevolent peacekeeper." - Sen. Robert C. Byrd (Link) Quote
minx Posted March 21, 2003 Author Posted March 21, 2003 Greg_W said: Jim said: But one point - a majority of the voters did not vote for Bushy. Not to harsh on you, Jim, but I think this is a prime example of the misconception that MANY people have about the architecture of our government and how elections work in the United States. Article II of the Constitution breaks down how Electors are chosen and how each State's Electors shall execute their responsibilities. Each State votes from among the choices of national candidates; with a few exceptions, the corresponding Electors from those States mimic that vote in THEIR vote that is submitted to the President of the Senate. It is by the tabulation of the votes of the Electors that the President and Vice President are elected. This system was set in place by the Founding Fathers to provide some measure of protection for the small states from the large states; it strikes a balance. So, while you may assert that "a majority of the voters did not vote for Bush[sic]", that is an irrelavent argument; it is the vote of the Electors (or Electoral College) that selects the President based on the voters' voices in each state. This is a prime characteristic of a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC versus a pure democracy. Greg W greg, really this is simple. yes we vote for people to represent our opinions. sometimes we win sometimes we lose. we do not however lose the right or even the obligation to express our dissent. How will our legislators know what their constituents believe if we quit expressing our beliefs in as public a manner as possible. Quote
minx Posted March 21, 2003 Author Posted March 21, 2003 PullinFool said: minx said: ok- lets maket his easier, why not quit running this country on oil. the advantages are endless! How do you propose to deal with the distribution of goods, air travel, heating, lawnmowing, etc? Not to mention OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO BURN RUBBER!!! i propose that we recognize the urgency of moving away from a petroleum based and devote the resources and time to developing alternative fuels and energy sources instead of picking fights w/oil driven countries. Quote
Jim Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 Ah yes, democracy in action. What do the planners really think. An exerpt from the London Times. Notice you haven't seen reference to this leaked government document in any US media. "A classified policy document leaked to the Los Angles Times last week not only doubts the possibility of introducing democracy to the Middle East by 'domino effect' but considers Iraq to be the least likely crucible of reform because of its ethnic and religious divisions. That is why now, when we're perhaps just a few days from war and maybe only weeks from peace, the State department and CIA have still had no meaningful contact with the elected leadership of the Iraqi National Congress, a body which draws from all sects and ethnic groups. The attitude that informs this document, and the State department's institutional contempt for the INC, is at base racism disguised as hard-headed realism. It says: 'The towel heads can't hack it; the only way to achieve stability in the country is to install another strongman drawn from Saddam's Sunni minority.' " Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted March 21, 2003 Posted March 21, 2003 trask said: I love bombs, bullits and bullshit Though the scale certainly tips heavily toward the latter ... Quote
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