catbirdseat Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Wopper said: Catbird Seat - Do you or have you spent a lot of time in the construction industry? If so you would surely know in the overall picture there are very few construction companies that have the resources, i.e. manpower, contacts, money, expertise, legal advice, equipment etc., to perform work in foreign countries. Do you think you just load all your tools in the back of your Ford and go to foreign nations to rebuild them? No, I don't think there are that many companies that can do the job, but I know it is more than just five. Surely there must be large foreign companies that are up to the task. Fluor Corporation which took over for Westinghouse on the Hanford cleanup has spent billions of Federal dollars with very little to show for it. Since rebuilding will be done using our tax dollars, I care about how efficiently these dollars are spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Nobody will probably believe this either:  03/21 3:43P (DJ)+DJ Commander Of Iraqi 51st Division, Deputy Surrender-NYT  Story 6079 DJ Iraq 51st Division/Surrender -2: Unit Regular Army   NEW YORK (Dow Jones)--The commander of Iraq's 51st division and his top deputy surrendered to U.S. Marine forces Friday, The New York Times reports on its Web site, citing U.S. military officials. According to the report, it was the first time that the commander of an Iraqi division has surrendered to allied forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom. The 51st is a regular army unit that was deployed in southern Iraq directly in the path of the U.S.-led invasion. U.S. forces made a determined effort to persuade the 51st division to surrender, including leaflets and propaganda broadcasts. The leaflets instructed Iraqi forces that didn't want to fight to park their tanks in a square formation and walk at least half a mile from their tanks, the report said. The paper cited U.S. officials as saying that many of the soldiers of the 51st had simply left their posts and that the division melted away.  (END) Dow Jones Newswires 03-21-03 1557ET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Let's hope for more news like that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 mattp said: Let's hope for more news like that! Â Exactly. I hope they all surrender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 This war is estimated to cost about $100 billion before it is over, not counting the cost of rebuilding Iraq. Assuming about 100 million taxpaying Americans, the average cost per taxpayer would be about $1000 to wage this war.It's easy to sit behind your computer screen and spray about sending in the Marines, but let me put it this way, if you alone could launch the war by laying out $1000, how many of of you would open your wallets?" Would you pay $1000 for the war if you had a choice?I'm in. Where's my checkbook?No way. I'd rather spend my money on climbing gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 I dunno but one tomohawk missile would buy a hell of a lot of time to sort out this education mess in Oregon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 already paid as part of last year's IRS returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necronomicon Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 iain said: I dunno but one tomohawk missile would buy a hell of a lot of time to sort out this education mess in Oregon. Â I'd love a tomohawk missle. I'd sell it to some dark- skinned sand sifter and donate the money to fund public education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcat Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 mattp said: I'm sorry you're giving up, Tom. How about if I admit that I understand the idea that we are going to have to take him out sooner or later and we might as well get it over with now? Â In my view, Bush et al should have stuck with that one simple idea, and they might have persuaded more of our regular allies to go along with them. Had they not spewed blatant rhetorical lies and had they not been so arrogant about stating that we do not need Europe or the U.N., they could have forged a true coalition as Bush Sr. did. If we were invading Iraq with U.N. backing, I still wouldn't like it but I'd feel very differently about the whole matter. Would you agree with this, or are you one of those guys who think the U.N. is just a tool of those who want to take our freedom away? Â Â It's dang hard being a one man Army . Â I'm glad we agree we need to take him out. I believe many Iraqis feel this same way. I just saw on the news several Iraqi citizens (along with several US Marines), cutting up a giant picture of Saddam with a boxcutter. They certainly don't seem like they're protesting the conflict. It's a shame we have so many people in our own country who do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necronomicon Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 tomcat said: mattp said: I'm sorry you're giving up, Tom. How about if I admit that I understand the idea that we are going to have to take him out sooner or later and we might as well get it over with now? Â In my view, Bush et al should have stuck with that one simple idea, and they might have persuaded more of our regular allies to go along with them. Had they not spewed blatant rhetorical lies and had they not been so arrogant about stating that we do not need Europe or the U.N., they could have forged a true coalition as Bush Sr. did. If we were invading Iraq with U.N. backing, I still wouldn't like it but I'd feel very differently about the whole matter. Would you agree with this, or are you one of those guys who think the U.N. is just a tool of those who want to take our freedom away? Â Â It's dang hard being a one man Army . Â I'm glad we agree we need to take him out. I believe many Iraqis feel this same way. I just saw on the news several Iraqi citizens (along with several US Marines), cutting up a giant picture of Saddam with a boxcutter. They certainly don't seem like they're protesting the conflict. It's a shame we have so many people in our own country who do. Â It's a shame that you aledge to have served to protect the freedom of Americans, and then slam your fellow citizens when they attempt to exercise those freedoms. Seems kind of dipshit to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcat Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Necronomicon said: tomcat said: mattp said: I'm sorry you're giving up, Tom. How about if I admit that I understand the idea that we are going to have to take him out sooner or later and we might as well get it over with now? Â In my view, Bush et al should have stuck with that one simple idea, and they might have persuaded more of our regular allies to go along with them. Had they not spewed blatant rhetorical lies and had they not been so arrogant about stating that we do not need Europe or the U.N., they could have forged a true coalition as Bush Sr. did. If we were invading Iraq with U.N. backing, I still wouldn't like it but I'd feel very differently about the whole matter. Would you agree with this, or are you one of those guys who think the U.N. is just a tool of those who want to take our freedom away? Â Â It's dang hard being a one man Army . Â I'm glad we agree we need to take him out. I believe many Iraqis feel this same way. I just saw on the news several Iraqi citizens (along with several US Marines), cutting up a giant picture of Saddam with a boxcutter. They certainly don't seem like they're protesting the conflict. It's a shame we have so many people in our own country who do. Â It's a shame that you aledge to have served to protect the freedom of Americans, and then slam your fellow citizens when they attempt to exercise those freedoms. Seems kind of dipshit to me... Â The only dipshit around here is you .. you bring up a discussion about war, I oppose your beliefs and bring up several facts, you don't dispute them with any kind of logical argument (go ahead, read back through this thread and bring up one intelligent argument on your behalf), but instead call me names. You're either blind or dumb. I pick the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necronomicon Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 tomcat said: Necronomicon said: tomcat said: mattp said: I'm sorry you're giving up, Tom. How about if I admit that I understand the idea that we are going to have to take him out sooner or later and we might as well get it over with now? Â In my view, Bush et al should have stuck with that one simple idea, and they might have persuaded more of our regular allies to go along with them. Had they not spewed blatant rhetorical lies and had they not been so arrogant about stating that we do not need Europe or the U.N., they could have forged a true coalition as Bush Sr. did. If we were invading Iraq with U.N. backing, I still wouldn't like it but I'd feel very differently about the whole matter. Would you agree with this, or are you one of those guys who think the U.N. is just a tool of those who want to take our freedom away? Â Â It's dang hard being a one man Army . Â I'm glad we agree we need to take him out. I believe many Iraqis feel this same way. I just saw on the news several Iraqi citizens (along with several US Marines), cutting up a giant picture of Saddam with a boxcutter. They certainly don't seem like they're protesting the conflict. It's a shame we have so many people in our own country who do. Â It's a shame that you aledge to have served to protect the freedom of Americans, and then slam your fellow citizens when they attempt to exercise those freedoms. Seems kind of dipshit to me... Â The only dipshit around here is you .. you bring up a discussion about war, I oppose your beliefs and bring up several facts, you don't dispute them with any kind of logical argument (go ahead, read back through this thread and bring up one intelligent argument on your behalf), but instead call me names. You're either blind or dumb. I pick the latter. Â I can speak quite well, so I'm not "dumb", and you are too easliy baited, to quick to anger young Jedi. I did not "call you names", I merely suggested that your logic was "dipshit". Dipshit, in this sense, is an adjective, applied to characterize a noun, in this case, your "logic". Â Additionally, you asked earlier if I'm "educated". I did go to high school, if that matters at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necronomicon Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 War is bad, m'kay? Â Tomcat, I do not need to argue my point to you, as I stated previously. I do not need facts. I am propagandizing. I'm trying to get people to feel a certain way. In your particular case, I want you to feel angry, and reveal your anger, thereby revealing your weakness. You're angry right now because I'm not countering your points lucidly. I'm not even addressing your points, because I really don't care what they are. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Sorry to mislead you, Tom. I did not mean to imply that I think we need to take him out. I said I could understand the argument, not that I agree with it. I was trying to contrast an argument that I can understand (a fear that he is a bad guy so that, if he doesn't threaten us now he certainly will in the future) with one that is based on what is clearly mistruth, exaggeration, or unsubstantiated guesses (he threatens our home security right now and is right now arming terrorists). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcat Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Necronomicon said: War is bad, m'kay? Â There's the big fallacy. Again (as stated before in this very thread) ... the US was not born from peace. The American way of life, in a large part, comes from wars fought in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcat Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Way to judge chief .. I'm not angry at all. Wrong again. Â My last statement (with the dipshit) was more out of pity and acknowledgement than anger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necronomicon Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 tomcat said: Necronomicon said: War is bad, m'kay? Â There's the big fallacy. Again (as stated before in this very thread) ... the US was not born from peace. The American way of life, in a large part, comes from wars fought in the past. Â Justifying the wrongs of the present with the wrongs of the past? What type of phallacy is this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcat Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Necronomicon said: tomcat said: Necronomicon said: War is bad, m'kay? Â There's the big fallacy. Again (as stated before in this very thread) ... the US was not born from peace. The American way of life, in a large part, comes from wars fought in the past. Â Justifying the wrongs of the present with the wrongs of the past? What type of phallacy is this? Â It's fallacy chief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 catbirdseat said: This war is estimated to cost about $100 billion before it is over, not counting the cost of rebuilding Iraq. Assuming about 100 million taxpaying Americans, the average cost per taxpayer would be about $1000 to wage this war. It's easy to sit behind your computer screen and spray about sending in the Marines, but let me put it this way, if you alone could launch the war by laying out $1000, how many of of you would open your wallets?" Â <FORM METHOD=POST ACTION="http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/dopoll.php"><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="pollname" VALUE="1048281227catbirdseat"> <p>Would you pay $1000 for the war if you had a choice? <input type="radio" name="option" value="1" />I'm in. Where's my checkbook? <input type="radio" name="option" value="2" />No way. I'd rather spend my money on climbing gear. Â <INPUT TYPE=Submit NAME=Submit VALUE="Submit vote" class="buttons"></form> Â Catturd you're pathetic. I dook on you from great height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 tomcat said: There's the big fallacy. Again (as stated before in this very thread) ... the US was not born from peace. The American way of life, in a large part, comes from wars fought in the past. Â Well then, license enough for me! Cry havoc! and let loose the dogs of war! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necronomicon Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 The expansion of the the colonial population of the US into the american west was accomplished with an associatied genocide of native americans. Therefore, genocide is an acceptable practice, because it is part of how this great nation was built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcat Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Necronomicon said: The expansion of the the colonial population of the US into the american west was accomplished with an associatied genocide of native americans. Therefore, genocide is an acceptable practice, because it is part of how this great nation was built. Â Whoa .. Earth to Necronomicon. Hey bud, we're down here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Fuckin' A Â KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necronomicon Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 Civilians in Japan were fire-bombed during the final stages of World War Two. At the time, the strategy was rationalized as acceptable, yet is considered by many today to have been a crime. What is happening today, with our strategy in Iraq, that will be looked upon in the future as a crime? I wonder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkyclimber Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Tomcat: "Whoa .. Earth to Necronomicon. Hey bud, we're down here. " Â Dude, he is down here. YOU were the one that brought up the ridiculous historical comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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