Attitude Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Imagine this PageTop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 vegetablebelay said: And just imagine them liberated and free! Wow, now I'm all warm and fuzzy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Peter: I didn't see anywhere that DFA referred to US soldiers as murderers on this thread. He's simply pointing out that there is another group of people whom it might be appropriate to hope come out of this thing okay besides our own soldiers. You made a very strange comparison: a 19 year old American soldier and an equally innocent Iraqi? What do you mean by equally innocent? An Iraqi with a rifle and other weapons looking for an opponent to kill, or do you equate the folks trembling in the shadows with armed soldiers. Who, by the way, regardless of motives, are invading. If a bunch of Iraqis came over here to liberate me from the leader I despise, I'd definitely consider that an invasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 DFA , DFA , DFA , DFA , DFA It's true that we value the lives of our own way more than those of the enemy. Although, we do assign SOME value to enemy lives. Killing indiscriminantly in time of war has costs. If affects our ability to reconstruct after the war and it affects our relations with neighboring countries. This war cannot be compared to WWII. At the time we were dropping bombs on Germany and firebombing Dresden, Hitler had already invaded most of Western Europe and was trying to defeat our ally Great Britain and dominate the world. We also knew about the Germans efforts to exterminate millions of jews. We were losing thousands of men in combat and we were trying to shut down the German industrial base and sap the German's will to fight. Iraq on the other hand is contained entirely within its own borders. We cannot justify doing to the Iraqis what we did to the Germans in WWII from a military standpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 catbirdseat said: We also knew about the Germans efforts to exterminate millions of jews. [nitpick] No we didn't. We didn't find out about that until after we liberated the camps, well after we killed 100,000 people in our glorious 1000 plane raid of Dresden[/nitpick] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 OW Quote: Peter: I didn't see anywhere that DFA referred to US soldiers as murderers on this thread. He's simply pointing out that there is another group of people whom it might be appropriate to hope come out of this thing okay besides our own soldiers. DFA and I had a fairly long discussion where he claimed that soldiers are murderers. My reference to US soldiers as murderers was in that context. I would note that my comments were in fact expressly directed to DFA. DFA was doing more than pointing out that ‘there is another group of people whom it might be appropriate to hope come out of this thing okay besides our own soldiers” he was making clear and unsupportable statements regarding “war supporters” OW quote: You made a very strange comparison: a 19 year old American soldier and an equally innocent Iraqi? What do you mean by equally innocent? I was trying to invoke a response from DFA. But exactly how/why is it strange? Please tell me more. Exlpain innocence to me and why it matters. PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Trask, just move on... All victims of war feel pain They all suffer. No matter the color or belief. The real enemy is that genomic anomaly within all of us to want to make war and prevail over others. Just look at the behavior on this site for a good example. Despite what you may all think, it's a fine line between you and them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Sorry Chuck, you are wrong. Roosevelt DID know about the plan to exterminate the jews. I read a recent article that supported this view. Why didn't he do anything about it? That's the hard question. To a certain extent, he was doing all he could do, which was to win the war as quickly as possible. The US Knew About the Holocaust in 1938 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek_the_Greek Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Post deleted by Geek_the_Greek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 ScottP said: nothing you're insignificant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Geek_the_Greek said: So back to the topic at hand - why the hell should I care whether some 19 year-old dying is American or British or Iraqi? I guess I don't - I'd rather they both live. which two is "both" refering to.......and you should care 'cause they are dying for the control of "crude"oil bush and his croonies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 ChucK – Here is a true story your Dresden reference got me thinking about. This story is not directly related to the fire bombing of Dresden. Years ago I was in the mountains during a forest fire and homes were being evacuated. Everyone was packing up stuff and stuffing their cars knowing they had a very short time before in all probability their homes would become a pile of ashes. My parents neighbors were German (I’ll use the names Hansel and Gretel) and they brought out some very expensive wine which we were all drinking. It was odd scene: a hot summer morning drinking very expensive wine, the smell of smoke thick in the air everyone discussing what they thought worthy of saving. Ashes were falling like snow and Gretel began crying and telling stories of packing up and running from the Russians as a teenager in WWII. She mentioned how ashes were falling then too and she didn’t want to loose everything again. Hansel hadn’t even meet Gretel at that time he was a teenager thrown into a uniform (in DFA terms turned into a murderer!) fighter Americans, perhaps my uncle, to the west. Anyway her story was very compelling and her emotions quite real as she remembered it all. To read something in books is different from hearing it from a real participant. PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek_the_Greek Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 changed my mind about posting my anarchist views... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 trask said: ScottP said: nothing you're insignificant Did I hurt your feelings again? I asked you to move on to spare you the pain of the visual part of my post. I know how sensitive you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Geek_the_Greek said: changed my mind about posting my anarchist views... WHY...this here is america...land of FREEDOM and Free Speach....and blah, blah, fukin BLAH. VERY GOOD BOOK WORTH READING: It's the Media, Stupid by Robert McChesney, John Nichols, Paul David Wellstone (Introduction), Barbara Ehrenreich (Introduction), Ralph Nader, Paul Wellstone buy here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Peter makes a good point of fighting for noble goals, but even in WWII the US made some very vicious decisions regarding civilian populations. Read some of the interviews from Dresden and Hiroshima. You can argue the weighing of moral measures in that case. More recently the US has less of a consistent track record. The argument that the bad things we do are unintended consequences of achieving "good" goals is often weak. Certain no one here (I hope) wishes bad things for "our guys". Let's hope the innocent fare as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Peter_Puget said: Exlpain innocence to me and why it matters. You sure ask a difficult, philosophical question. Maybe you oughta pony up a bit with some of your views before asking others to work so hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 chucK said: Peter_Puget said: Exlpain innocence to me and why it matters. You sure ask a difficult, philosophical question. Maybe you oughta pony up a bit with some of your views before asking others to work so hard. Maybe he should change his name to peter PURGEit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Ah. I am expressing my ignorance. Certianly DFA who makes such distinctions as a matter of course can explain such concepts easily. On another subject here are some true leaders: PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Hey Trask, your "you're insignificant" insult is stupid. WHO THE FUCK ISN'T???? The VAST majority of the people on this planet never do anything significant in the big picture. We're only alive because we're genetically programmed to want to stay alive. True, there are a few people who are significant (Bush and Saddam come to mind) but 99.999999999% of the world's population aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted March 20, 2003 Author Share Posted March 20, 2003 "DFA – These kind of statements make you look like an asshole. To think that most war supporters don’t give a damn about human casualties is complete goofiness and reveals contempt for others that can be construed as nothing more than vanity. For the record, all things being equal given the choice between a 19 year old American soldier (whom by the way you believe is a murderer) and equally innocent Iraqi, I would pick the American to live. I would of course be open to your detailed discussion on the relative innocence of an American soldier compared to an Iraqi newborn, aged woman, teenager or whomever. As in our previous discussion after the sloganeering ends I am sure your thought process will prove to be empty." Jeez, Puget, something seems to have gotten under your skin (great Sinatra material there). You've made a misinterpretation or two which perhaps contributes to your currently lathered state. First on the docket, the plea for consideration of the lives of the citizens in the country our president is targeting. Numerous people in favor of war both on this site and elsewhere make big talk about smoking "ragheads" and laying waste to those "camel jockeys" over there, etc., but would throw a grand wobbler should any American blood be spilled. Dr. Flash Amazing is just raising the question of whether we are not all people who deserve to live, regardless of whose flag is flying over our heads. It's a really out-there bleeding-heart liberal lefty communist concept, Lord knows. DFA did not insert any bloodthirsty words into any hawkish people's mouths, but rather posted a reflexive plea as a result of said words issuing from said mouths. And this murder business ... way back when, as the Doctor remembers, his position was that war was murder from the standpoint that beaucoup lives were wasted, and conceded that where the line was drawn as far as who was responsible was difficult to say. Not, as you say, that "soldiers are murderers." However, by your own criteria, for putting those words in DFA's mouth it looks like you are the one looking like an asshole. Oops. Ta ta, Dr. Flash "enough with the violence, already" Amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 awfully serious post this early in the morning DFA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 CRAKCED WHAT A PATHETIC STATEMENT. WE ARE ALL SIGNIFICANT! EVERY SINGLE PERSON PLAYS A ROLE IN LIFE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Thank you Barney. Perhaps you should recolor your avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Peter_Puget said: Ah. I am expressing my ignorance. Yep. I didn't think you'd stick your neck out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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