Rodchester

When you need a GPS, you need to stay at home. Map, compass, instinct, and experience are far mopre accurate than a GPS, for climbing anyway. 2 cents.......

And still...snowmobiles suck. ------------------ Have a nice day.

Maybe take a look at the BD snowpack. It is very beefy and the fabric will take a beating, it has tool tubes and a crampon pouch. Good all around apline pack, a bit heavy. i have used the Khamsin on occaision and really liked it, lightweight and simple.

Griff, Degres are hard to beat for the money... JIMI, I actually tested the Tecnica altitude a couple of years ago. It was an uninsulted version. I really liked the overall performance. At the time they had a severe problem with the sole delaminating. However that has been fixed. I would say the insulated version essentially replaces plastics for all but the coldest climates. Good for the volcanos, ice-climbing, etc., but not really for expeditions or true winter mountaineering. Overall a good bit, a bit a a niche application boot that CAN be stretched to do other things. On my foot Tecnica builds the most comfortable boots. Good luck ------------------ Have a nice day.

I have seen many people, the wife included, climb steep water ice in the degres with no problem. The bigest difference you will find between the boots is the warmth. The degres are fine for most anything around the cascades and SA. The Invernos have a reputation, earned, for being one of the warmest boots, next to the Artis Expedition that is. Degres are also more economical than the Invernos. If you are Cascade kind of guy with summer approaches, degres are a good choice. Though by July and through September you will want your leathers back. Both are very good boots. Good luck...

and still...snowmobiles suck. ------------------ Have a nice day.

And still...snowmobiles suck. ------------------ Have a nice day.

Ok so it sucks that the guy died.....I still hate those sleds, and the mentality of those who ride them. To make it worse Bake is NOT a proper place for them, in my mind anyway. 2 cents..... ------------------ Have a nice day.

What a jack-ass. Now I think the problem with the Pacific NW is locals like zdfg. I think he needs mentoring, or maybe a headwound...... ------------------ Have a nice day.

Ditto to jblakley..... ------------------ Have a nice day.

Has anyone been to Mt. Shasta recently. Looking for beta on Mt. Shasta: present conditions, general Mt. beta, and route info on West Buttress route (no not on Denali), and any recommendations on other routes to do this time of year. Also if you know of any good web sites with beta and or any climbing shops locally (Mt Shasta or Weed) that would have good beta on conditions, we would appreciate it. Two man team with time looking for a peak or two to bag, conditions locally suck so off we go. Thanks......

BD Ice pack in the 50L. It rocks and climbs very well.

Well, I have head from two companies and below is their responses. Not much help. I have to ask myself, If they don't know who does? First response from Scott Newell of Blue Water Ropes: There is indeed no such monster as a "double rope". The UIAA designation is 1/2 rope. Two halfs make a whole. If you look at the last rope review in Climbing Magazine, they explain the difference. I believe "double rope" technique has been carried over to describe the ropes themselves. Half ropes are tested on the drop test tower with a single rope and a 55kG falling mass. Twins are tested with two ropes and an 80kG falling mass [the same weight as a single rope]. It is confusing when people look at specs for twins and half and the twin seems to have better specs. But, you are not comparing apples to apples due to the different testing technique. I have our current twin, the ice floss, at the testing lab right now. I am having it tested as a half as well as a twin and will post the specs and attempt to show the different results. The new website will be up in about two weeks. Hopefully the results from the certified test lab are back by then. Scott Newell Second response is from "Jeff" at BD. Even less help: I'll respond to you and you can use my reply if you wish, or parts of it. Note B.D. is not a manufacturer of ropes...ours are made for us by either PMI or Beal Half Ropes and/or double ropes are the same thing. Generally you don't hear the term double ropes much anymore. These ropes are usually between 8mm and 9mm and must be used in pairs. They are versatile for long wandering routes because you clip them alternately and/or to the right and left to help prevent rope drag. As well they also have benefits when a long rappel may be in the works or falls where there is potential for sharp edge to chop a rope. Twin ropes must be used as one, with both ropes clipped into each piece of pro. These are usually around 8mm or even smaller in diameter. Not as popular as the above. Hope that clarifies a bit. The Climbing Magazine Gear Guide 2001 has a great section on ropes and the differences. You might check it out. Regards, -Jeff

Dane has hit the head of the nail...does any one have any hard data or beta that is backed up by manufacturers or actua; engineers, tests, etc.? Clearly there are differences, what exactly are they?

The way I see it is unto each their own. Hauling loads, or using porters, may not be the way to go for some but it may be for others. This is the cascades, most anything goes. Sure there are somethings that are almost universally bad news. But for the most part go for it. my two cents...

Curious....because I have heard opinions, stated as fac,t from sooo many people that have each varied sooo drastically on the topic, and none have been able to back it up? I am just not the kid of guy who takes things like this as gospel because someone, everybody, says so. 1/2 ropes are supposed to clip seperately they say...yet Sterling ropes says that their 8.8, which they call a 1/2 rope: "is designed to be used in pairs and clipped through protection either together or alternately." Does this mean I can do that with all half ropes? Most say no...but can't show me why. Sterling ropes says that their "7.6 is designed to used in pairs with both ropes clipped together through each piece of protection." a twin rope, yes, but what if I clipped them seperately? Just curious...yes. Surprised that climbers can't answer this one...maybe even concerned. I agree it would be great to hear from an engineer. I sent out quite a few e-mails seeking info form manufacturers. I will let you know what they say, if they say that is. Isn't there anyone out there who knows this?

Curious..what started this one? Is the question whether someone else helping you reach a summit is ethical? i.e. guided climbs or porters hulling loads?

Good info everyone, But what seems to be missing is the properties of the ropes...is there a difference? Many of you (forrest_m) have alluded to differences, but no one has stated any clearly. I am seeking a more diffinitive answer, less about the technique, pros and cons, and more about the actual rope. I sent e-mails to many of the manufacturers, we will see if any respond. Thabks for all of the input!!! ------------------ Have a nice day.

My understanding has always been that if both double ropes are clipped they will create a greater forfce on the pro and could either pull the pro, the biner, or the draw. Where with "twin" ropes are designed to work in unison and will not create the impact force on the pro. I think forrest_m is close in saying that it is the way "twin ropes are formulated (through different types of nylon? weaving? relationship of core and sheath? only your rope engineer knows for sure) to be much stretchier than an apparently similar half rope, even if they have similar diameters." I really would like to hear from an engineer on this, or at least a rope rep. I sent an e-mail to a few companies, we will see if they respond. Thanks for all of the beta and opinions. Keep them coming.

Smoker, What is the address for Sterling's web site?

But can anyone tell me why you clip the double or 1/2 ropes seperately and the twin ropes through the same pro? What happens if you clip both through the same pro on a double or 1/2 rope set up? Is the only difference size? In other words is it decided on by the ropes diameter? and testing?

Thanks for the beta/opinions. Ice Floss was originally designed for use in a double rope set up on water ice. I just want to sue it on glaciers. Keep the good beta coming!!! ------------------ Have a nice day.

Ha ha ha. I was in the Tetons a couple of years ago during a Nike shoot (by Ace Kavale) and we found it quite funny. We watched them approach, they started looking like a magazine cover. Within an hour they were hurting for certain, and they carried very small and light packs. But they looked good!!! ------------------ Have a nice day.

Ok...let me put this one out there. Last night I was in a gear shop, not REI, and asked a counter-jockey what exactly the difference was between a double rope and a twin rope and a half rope. He told me there was no such thing as a double rope, just twin and half. He then went into an explanation about how "ice climbers" use one and rock climbers the other. He never could explain the difference between the actual ropes, just whether you clip one or both ropes into your pro. He did say that they ropes are tested differently. When I told him that the Maxim web site simply called their ropes "double ropes" he seemed to indicate that I didn't know what I was talking about. (See www.newenglandropes.com) He informed me that most climbers never talk to the manufacturers, so they don't know about ropes. He however, was an expert because he was trained by manufacturers. (I kept a straight face) Now this thread is not to slam on counter-jockeys and gear shops at all. I want to know what you think the definition of "double ropes" versus "half-ropes" versus "twin ropes" is and what are the actual physical differences, if any. Also, are there any good resources on the web that actually discuss and define the differences? Well go at it and lets please try to keep the crap out. Start your own thread if you want to cap on counter-jockeys. ------------------ Have a nice day.

Does anyone have any ACTUAL experience with the Blue Water Ice floss ropes, especially using the 37 meter as a light weight glacier moutaineering rope. I have been comparing it with Maxim 35 meter 8.5 rope. The Maxim appears to have a tougher sheath, although it does weigh a pound (or so) more than the ice floss. Thanks.... ------------------ Have a nice day.