sobo

I wonder if the same thing applies to SAR in other parks and National Forests. Can Seattle Mountain Rescue try to talk a climber down? What about the Chelan County Sheriff? General MRA (Mountain Rescue Association) protocol is that if the rescuers feel that it is unsafe to attempt a rescue, you abort. "Do not create more subjects" is the rule. We are all volunteers in SAR and Mountain Rescue, and no one can demand that we go after someone. Case in point: We had a County deputy here in Yakima a few years back who thought that we were at his beck and call, and ordered us into what we in MR deemed to be a dangerous rescue situation. We (CWMR) refused. That deputy isn't involved in SAR/Mountain Rescue anymore. We still are. More info here.

Hmmmm, descending from 10,670... just above Thumb. They should be fine, as long as they don't snag a crampon in a gaiter. And as long as Gator doesn't send a team their way, there's "no harm, no foul." It's just a call on a cell phone.

NEWSTIPS, I second what ketch said. People (non-climbers) need to know that. Add in my personal kudos, too.

And even then, you're only avoiding climbing accidents...

You lookin' fer a new job or sumpin'?

Hey fear, Do you subscribe to the email listserve known as This is True by Randy Cassingham? He also runs a "sister" listserve called The True Stella Awards (after the old lady who sued McD's for the hot coffee). Kinda like a snopes.com; he does the research, makes sure it's not crap, etc. I think he even links to them on his website. You might enjoy it. Check it out: www.thisistrue.com www.StellaAwards.com

Well, addie, I think jon's post ought to about do it.

Does California count? Mountain Hardware Yakima (racks) BD/Patagucci etc.

Didja wanna borrow the guide to LC?

Hey, GT, I think your favorite **ignored user** beat you to the punch on this one... See here... Hey, did you get my message yesterday about my login problems from home? There's some Richard Simmons pr0n in it for you if you can fix it...

Well, tree-spiking wasn't particularly high-profile property destruction either... I'm not saying it is ELF, just that it's not outside of their MO. And I agree with MCNate. There are better ways to spend the money that's spent on the repairs of the destruction. It's the policies that allow luxury homes at Vail, mineral extraction in the wilderness (contemplated), etc. that need to change. Not burning down the houses. They'll just be rebuilt, 'cuz these folks have bucks to burn, as it were... It'a all about being alienated, and not alientating your support base. I think that's where folks like ELF and their ilk have got it wrong. It's just another jihad, as it were. And we've all seen where that's led...

Only because that hasn't happened... yet. They're just pounding on the cost of vandalism right now, somewhere upwards of $50M, because that is quantifiable. Don't get me wrong, I abhor property destruction/vandalsim. Not much better than folks swiping your climbing gear, IMHO.

Oh yeah, that's cute. Just think for a moment that maybe their methods might not be the best way to achieve change. It seems to me that they run the risk of alienating folks instead of garnering support for their cause. What do you think will happen when someone gets seriously hurt of killed? BTW, I've got all the coffee I need, and it ain't a triple-shot grande cappucino-mocha with sprinkles and orgeat, neither.

Here, read this... From the article... ...While this makes them ready to take actions that are considered by much of society to be radical, their reverence for nature and their belief — whether articulated or not — that life in any form is sacred, keeps them opposed to intentionally harming other people, even their ideological opponents. "It is a laugh to me when they call us violent or terrorists," Lee Dessaux, a hunt saboteur said in a 1997 interview quoted in Taylor's article "Religion, Violence and Radical Environmentalism: from Earth First! to the Unabomber to the Earth Liberation Front" in Journal of Terrorism and Political Violence. "I say, if we were, don't you think we'd have killed people by now?" They still haven't either killed or seriously hurt anyone in more than 100 incidents over five years since they burned a truck at Forestry Service office in Oregon, but law enforcement officials fear it is only a matter of time. <emphasis added by sobo> "They keep saying that we're not going to hurt anyone, and I think they're sincere, but what happens is you can't control the zealots — we saw that with [Oklahoma City bomber Timothy] McVeigh," Szady said. "Our other fear is that someone is going to be killed accidentally." ... While you are correct that they haven't killed anyone yet, it's like the man said, "...it's just a matter of time." One of these days, a tree-spike, a gate pipe bomb, or arson fire is going to kill someone. Count on it. That's what I don't like about them.

Exactly! That's what we did. Ryan, listen to Distel. He may be young, but that's never stopped anyone from giving good advice.

Shut up, Winter. WTF do you know what I think? Did I say it was ELF? Fuck no! Did I say it was my opinion that it was ELF? Fuck yeah! Do you know what the fucking difference is between those two questions? Cogitate on that a bit, Zippy...

Agreed. Cut down on the packs. Not to sound like your daddy, tho..

Great guidebook for Les Calanques is called "Les Calanques". It's in French, but I knew enough Italian to be able to figger out what I could and shouldn't get on. Les Calanques is in the south of France, walking distance from the resort beach town of Cassis. My wife (not yet at that time) and I had a blast! Lemme know if you want to borrow the guidebook. I'd like to have it back, tho. Sentimental reasons, ya know...

I think, and this is just my opinion, that it's the Earth Liberation Front (ELF). I heard an article on NPR last week where there were indications that ELF was planning a nationwide ecoterrorist strike. They were supposed to be centering on SUV dealerships, was what I thought I heard though... Just my opinion; it sounds like ELF's modus operandi.

Well done, Brad! Nice to hear that somebody is getting out. BTW, who'd you partner up with? So, Iain catching the snowcat, eh? Hmmmmmmmmm...

Sounds like you're headed up the Kautz or mebbe Feuher's Finger, yes...? If you're staying at Turtle Rocks, you'll cross the lower Nisqually on your way to the ramp/gulley that leads up towards the toe of the Wilson. The lower Nisqually is the standard crevasse rescue practice area at MRNP. Start out early, and pick a slot on your way to the Turtle and have at it. Finish up the day by ascending ~4k feet to your bivy site at Turtle Rocks. Or, if you think that might be too tiring at the end of a hard day of crevasse practice, you could probably also find a decent slot on the Wilson, a bit closer to your intended campsite. Or, since you said you've got an extra day, hike out to the lower Nisqually, practice, then head back to Paradise for and and a good night's sleep, and start your climb the next day. Now that's what I'd do. Whatever you do, be safe, learn something, and by all means have fun.

Did someone call me? wally, Here is the "testing" thread to which ketch referred above. My results are about nine or ten posts down on the first page.

91 since 1887, when records started being kept. Source: Seattle Times, June 7, 2004

From what I've been able to glean from what I've read on the subject, I think it has something to do with the honor of success, shame in retreat, and mebbe even Bushido or something like that. Of all the things I've read about people failing to summit on big mountains, the thing that struck me as quite odd was the "fact" that a lot of "Far Easterners" (Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese, Chinese, etc.) do not stop to help their failing climbing companions, but rather just leave them where they drop and carry on themselves towards the summit. What struck me as the absolute oddest thing was that on the way back down, the "successful summiteers" didn't usually stop to pick up and help the people they left behind on the way up. Every man/woman for him/herself, I guess.