sobo

JoshK's comments are spot on, and readily apparent to anyone paying even the slightest amount of attention to the matter. And I did not miss the "key concept" nuance of Jew vis-a-vis Israeli, either. Yes, there is blood on the hands of both sides. Yes, there are rocket attacks from Hamas and its predecessors. Yes, there is Israeli retaliation for those attacks, and more often than not it is overly punitive. Yes, there is guilt on the hands of the UN and the other nations that forced the Israeli state into being in 1948 and partitioned an area already settled by Palestinians (again, I remind the reader that Jews have lived in this same area in millenia past and have an equal claim to the traditional area as just about anyone else in the Middle East). And yes, it is up to the moderates to wrest control of their respective nations' governments and their fates to bring this situation under some semblance of control. j_b, I think the first thing that Israel must do, if they intend to develop a ME peace process, would be to return to the 1948 borders. That would also entail compelling its citizens to respect those borders. I would not consider this action to be unexpected. Why not? Look what Israel did in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to its own citizens in mid-2005 for your answer. Israel's borders were set up by an international organization with a global mission to establish peace. Whether the Palestinians like it or not is immaterial at this point in time. On the opposite side of the coin, it is up to the Israeli government to exercise its control over its own citizens and prevent them from (dare I say, force them to stop) developing settlements in disputed areas and/or those lands not within the 1948 UN borders. As I said above, I think that act alone would go a long way toward engendering some consideration and cooperation from a more moderate Palestinian and/or Hamas government, and the Arab world in general. But Hamas must respond in kind and get control over their own citizens and compel them to stop shelling Jewish residential settlements, whether those settlements be in Israel or in any disputed/captured territory. A cease-fire must be established and maintained. Hamas broke the last one...

Sweet route and beautiful pic, Craig. Did Kevin manage to make it out there with you?

I suspect it is in much the same way that Couloir finds those fetching avatar pics of his...

Israel's borders, whose do you think? Israel, as a new state, was "granted" borders in 1948 by the UN, despite the inhabitant's displeasure with their new neighbors, never mind the fact that millenia ago it had been inhabited by Jews before the Romans expelled them. The world didn't notice in 1948, nor did it care if it did notice. It had just concluded a world conflict, and was probably tired of "little disagreements" in a faraway corner of the globe. Fast forward to 1967. The entire Arab world was ganging up on Israel with the stated intent of wiping it from the map. In an act of state self-preservation, it launched a pre-emptive strike against a superior force and cold-cocked them back to the 6th century. The fact that Israel gained so much ground during the offensive is a result of good intelligence, battle planning, and execution. And probably a will to continue to exist. I do not begrudge Israel the gains they made in their several wars, because if the Arab armies had succeeded in defeating Israel, it would not exist today. Because Israel typically wins its wars, it is fitting that they increase their territory. This is the age-old nature of warfare. However, I suspect they could engender much goodwill in the Middle East if they would give the gained lands back and return to their 1948 UN-described borders. They forcibly evicted their own citizens from a few settlements in the West Bank and all settlements in the Gaza Strip in August and September of 2005, and offered to do as much with the Golan Heights last year in exchange for a peace agreement with Syria. Syria, however, refused to sever its ties with terrorist organizations bent on destroying Israel as part of the conditions of the exchange, and the agreement fell through. But I would also posit that if Israel were to embark upon a wholesale land return, it should reasonably expect to be left alone and not have to suffer incessant and indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks from Hamas and/or other terrorist organizations as a way of life. Don't you agree?

Also the bombing of the Iranian Iraqi nuclear plant. [correction made by sobo] Then there was the revengeful Wrath of God, though some would argue that those folks were assassinated because they remained to be threats. OK Gary, fair point about the Iraqi reactor and it being a pre-emptive strike. I'd forgotten about that one. But research indicates that no persons were harmed. Gotta give the Israelis props for thinking ahead about safety at least, huh? BBC News link However, I must call BS on the Wrath of God comment. The Wrath of God assassinations were in direct response to the Palestinian militant organization Black September and its PLO allies killing 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich. Surely you must remember that from your history, yes? Once again, a response to an attack from outside its borders, and not a pre-emptive strike. STP- Nice video. My 4-year-old daughter thought it was a righteous find. Quote: "That awesome, Daddy."

Seriously, we do. Best solution going. Don't know how that would work with goggles, though, as I've never tried it above water.

Exactly! Like FW said on Page 1: "They voted in Hamas. They made their bed." Now they're having second thoughts about getting between the sheets. It's too late for that, or maybe it's time to change the sheets again.

A happy, peaceful, caring person is one who has beer. So f___ you if you don't have any.

Bug, This is what I was trying to get across. ^^ I think a reasonable way to stop the bloodshed is to stop instigating it in the first place and just lay off the indiscriminate lobbing of missiles and rockets across a border, no? Just how difficult is that for Hamas to understand?

I don't see how what I wrote is "spineless", and I never set out to disagree with you, Keith. I think you would do well to reread my 4:13 p.m. post, which was undergoing a refining edit while you were posting the above quote. I merely provide information that shows that this conflict has been an ongoing thorn in the participants' sides for thousands of years, was not created by the primary players, is not black and white, and is not rooted in the relatively recent attacks initiated by Hamas and responded to by the IDF. I may be wrong, or it may be my Western media sources, but it seems to me that every time Israel throws a few missiles or launches a couple of airstrikes across the border, it was preceded by an attack from outside its borders, i.e., Hamas, or Fatah or the PLO in earlier times. I cannot recall a time when the IDF launched a pre-emptive attack, except in 1967, and that was in response to Egypt expelling the UN peacekeeping force immediately before the Six-Day War broke out. Israel saw itself alone (the US was "busy" in Vietnam and not interested in what Israel was getting itself into), pitted against the entire Arab world, and decided to act, likely out of self-preservation. And they did act... decisively. I dare say it could not have been a huge surprise to the Arab armies when they saw the IDF coming, but I digress. If you want a solution from me, I don't have one. But I would posit that any workable solution just might start with Israel's neighbors laying off trying to kill Jews all the time. By this point, it should be obvious to any observer that the Israelis believe firmly in the Eye for an Eye Doctine. If someone throws a few rocks at them, they're going to throw a few rocks right back. It ain't rocket science.

Keith, Your history is not "off", but may not be complete. We all know that the Brits left it up to the UN to split up the Palestinian state in 1948 to create Isreal. But I think FW is forgetting that Palestine was actually a state since Roman times and has been in existence for almost 2,000 years, and it was created by the Romans in response to another conflict. See here and here. So it is not just the Jews who have suffered a diaspora in this conflict and seek to return to their homeland, but the solution to their diaspora created yet another diaspora, this one for the Palestinians, who also claim the same area as their homeland. So we have an invading army from thousands of years ago disect an area, forcibly remove its inhabitants, and create a massive refugee problem. That refugee problem has never been solved to this day, as every attempt to create a state where none exists serves no purpose except to create more refugees and repeated diasporas of the existing inhabitants. Clearly, there is no easy solution to this conflict, but I think beating up on the Jews for beating up on Hamas/Palestinians for beating up on the Jews is likely not the correct approach. What is interesting to me is that one could reasonably argue that the Jews and Palestinians are of the same bloodlines. Modern day Isreal is founded right where ancient Palestine existed. Somewhere in that mess they are all related, but religion and its attendant fundamentalism and intolerance has exacerbated the problem to a point that borders unsolvable.

Methinks isha not sucha wise idea.

Antelope, OR, perhaps. Jus' sayin'...

That makes perfect sense to me, having just finished reading through that thread. Now, how to get those 10 minutes back...

DH, Read here for another article: From KOMO news: http://www.komonews.com/news/36957019.html Read the list of comments following this story. It's the same old tired "They should have to pay for their rescue" bullshit from the Barca-Lounger set again. When will the Great Unwashed ever get it? The last comment, from a jennjohnson167, makes reference to the deceased being a high school friend. At the risk of being insensitive, the name of the deceased is Megan (no last name given). Being as how she was a Puget Sound native and an employee at Crystal Mtn, I am sure that there are some on this board that know her, and I extend my sympathy toward you all. My sincerest condolences to her family and friends, and that her partner is someday able to come to grips with this sad event.

Read the list of comments following this story. It's the same old tired "They should have to pay for their rescue" bullshit from the Barca-Lounger set again. When will the Great Unwashed ever get it?

This guy is: Hyalite Canyon Airborn Ranger Those pics were nice, the way he connected the ice portions with the shitty mud/cobble link. But what I really want to know is, was he wearing Levis or Wranglers? I have to stay in step with the latest style, ya know.

WTF, are you smokin' crack? Those are the brand-spanking new powder blue softshells from Schoeller, just out this Christmas! All the cool kids have 'em.

Although it's not my thread, it's still for the fathers... You can start your own thread, tazz. It'd be cool to have a "sister thread" with pics from all of the climbing moms here. :tup:

A snowmobiler, but apparently not highmarking. Washington's first avy fatality for this winter. Let's be careful out there... link to article in the WetSnatchy World

This info may be old, but I have (had??) a contact at North Cascades Mountain Guides. Contact Geof Childs at 509-nine nine six-three one nine four and leave a message on his voicemail requesting a conditions update and leave your call-back number. It's been a few years (5 or 6??) since I used Geof's "feature" so I don't know if it's still valid. YMMV. Alternatively, you could call his wife Diane (assuming he's still married to her) at her store (Winthrop Mountain Sports) at 509-nine nine six-two eight eight six and see if there's anyone there that knows the beta or ask for Diane and ask her to have Geof call you back. Good luck

impressive! Seems like this guy lays claim to the impressive. A round trip ticket in 6 months. And a one-way speed record of 71 days and change. Yowza!

On foot or mountain bike? This citation would seem to suggest that mountain bikes are excluded from the PCT, although I have seen folks on mountain bikes on the section from the Goat Rocks to Chinook Pass.