Alpine_Tom

quote: Originally posted by To The Top: Kautz is nice, but I would also look at the Emmons route. You start out in a forest, then a meadow and then a snowfield, then either rock 3rd class or a glacier.TTT In my oh-so-humble opinion, the Emmons is the most boring route I've been on. It's a long slog through the trees, an interesting bit over the Interglacier and across to Camp Schurman, where you get to see you entire route spread out ahead of you. From there it's a steady, 30-degree slog meandering straight up the mountain. Nothing changes except when you look back to judge your progress against Little Tahoma. Finally you get to the bergschrund, and then the crater rim. The best part is that you get to slog back out the white river trail, which feels 20 miles long at the end of a summit weekend. Hike up to Camp Schurman as a practice trip, and you've seen the best of the route. Then you can go back and summit via Kautz, or DC. YMMV

NPR did a piece on him over the weekend, including the interview referenced above. Here's the link to the real audio archive: http://search1.npr.org/opt/collections/torched/wesa/data_wesa/seg_140425.htm

My God, I think that's Dan Larson!

quote: Originally posted by Mike Collins: The oldest bristlecone pine was not cut down by dendrologists but by a geologist who wanted to determine the age of a moraine which he was studying. He used crude dendrological methods for his work (i.e. cut down the tree). According to Galen Rowell in Mountain Light (p. 20, I'm home with a sick kid today) "The Forest Service had granted geographer Donald Currey permission to cut down a tree in order to date Little Ice Age events." This was in the Wheeler Peak area. He tried using a corer first, and it broke and rather than wait months for a replacement tool, he had it cut into sections and determined that the tree, named for posterity "WPN-114" (who says scientists aren't poetic?) was over 4000 years old, and older than any other trees in the area by 1200 years.The tree known as Methuselah is 4600 years old, and is someplace called Westguard Pass (p.12).

The place I've done it, which I guess you could duplicate up around Mt. Hood someplace, is on the snow walls at the side of the road up by Alpental. The walls were about 8 feet high at the time, and pretty hard, and looked enough like a crevasse edge (to us) with the benefit of being an easy drive ad no real danger.

One thing to keep in mind is that supplments are not regulated as drugs, the fda doesn't test them, and in fact manufacturers are forbidden from claiming any theraputic benefits. There are regular news reports of various supplement manufacturers including unlisted ingredients, varying dosages, impurities, and other reports that make me, anyhow, worry about what's in these things. According to the US Olympic Committee, the one independant lab that does testing for dietary supplements is consumerlab.com. Here's their report on Glucosamine:http://consumerlab.com/results/gluco.asp

Hikerwa, do you know the brand name of that camera mount, or who carries them?

Amongst all their other services, RMI does a one-day crevasse rescue school about a dozen times a year, and I'm considering taking it. Why? Well, though I've practiced crevasse rescue techniques (never for real, and hope to keep it that way) and set up z-pulley's, I've never had any formal training. I don't strongly feel the lack on my CV, but it would make my wife a bit happier about my "brushes with death." And, there's a bit of reassurance to knowing that someone who has done this a LOT and knows what it's supposed to look like has reviewed my technique. Plus, doing it under pressure -- in front of a bunch of other classmates -- seems like better practice than screwing around on the snow at Snoqualmie pass, which is where I've actually done it.Someone posed here in the last week that he'd taken the this course from RMI about 15 years ago (?) and thought it was a total waste of time. Does anyone else have any feedback on it? While it'd be nice to take two weeks for the AAI course, I haven't got the free time. I don't get two weeks in the mountains in two years (I know, wah, wah, I've made my bed, etc.) Besides, I can self-arrest. I can do pressure breathing. I can even put on crampons without getting hurt. I don't really want to hang around with a bunch of beginners learning how to put on a seat harness and practicing boot-axe belays.

This is the one I look to generally, NOAA's mountain weather forecasts. http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/seattle/forecast03.html

Nah, it wasn't Beckey. But the down suit had this big sewn-on patch that looked like a K-2 expedition logo. I wanted to ask, but "hey, are you someone famous?" is almost as tacky as not recognizing the name when they tell you.

That does it. I'm changing my name to Matt_Tom

I think it’s normally approached from Timberline. That’s the way I went, anyhow. I did it solo, and except for the short step, it seemed pretty safe. The amusing bit is that, as I was looking at the step, trying to figure out what to do, this old guy (in his seventies, I’m sure, in a one-piece down suit) came down it in telemark skis. Slow, one step at a time, but I figured if he could walk down it in skis, I could sure get up it with crampons and an ice axe.

You might look at the Wyeast route. Basically it wraps around the the right behind the Steele cliffs (see Oregon High.) It has the advantage of a great deal less traffic, and aside from one short fairly steep bit (which was thigh-deep powder when I did it, and really held my attention!) it's not particularly difficult or dangerous.

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: Alpine Tom ]

quote: Originally posted by mr. happy: what's the story on kropp? Well, I planned on really enjoying his book, since I'm a cyclist. But it's mostly about how everyone but him cheats -- he lists all these guys who didn't make it to the summit of climbs they claimed. And how no one appreciates him. So he decided that he'd climb Everest the only way that was fair -- he'd bicycle down there, climb solo, and bicycle home. Anything else would be cheating, you see?Certainly I don't begrudge him his feat; I'll never be capable of doing it. (For one thing, I have a job, a family, and a mortgage.) But he no more "did it himself" than Edmund Hillary. After all, he took full advantage of modern climbing gear, acclimatization, knowledge of physiology, route information, weather information, and every other advantage of the modern climbing scene. For his actual summit climb he didn't use the fixed ropes thru the icefall, but for his acclimatization climbs he did.His book reminds me of the quote by, I think, Newton, "If I've seen further than other's it's because I was standing on the shoulders of giants." Kropp doesn't seem to think he's standing on anyone's shoulders. It's all a question of degree, and you're certainly entitled to your own views of what's "fair means" and what's not, like Twight says, as long as you're honest about it. What I find offensive is that he takes his arbitrarily chosen personal values and uses them to judge every other climber.Plus, just so there's no question of how much more macho he is than you, he includes a tick list in the book, of all the peaks he's climbed. The kicker is that he claims in the book to be the second person to summit K2 without supplimental oxygen. This is in the '90s, about 94 or so, I think. Hell, the Wickwire expedition in '78 had three people summit without supplimental oxygen. That's what I meant by being a liar.

I've had good experiences with gearexpress.com.

I went up to Pilchuck a few weeks back (with kids, to go sledding) and there was a bit of a landslide a mile or so up the road. I wouldn't try it without four wheel drive. And, you might well have to walk the last half mile or so. But it's a fun winter outing, and (probably) not very dangerous from an avalanche pov.

"Touching the Void" remains one of the most vivid and scary books I've ever read. "In the Throne Room of the Mountain Gods", Galan Rowell's account of the first Wickwire expedition to K2, is well worth the read. Goran Kropp is a whiny, self-righteous jerk.And a liar. [ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Alpine Tom ]

quote: Originally posted by max: On a related topic: Do any of you watch OLN much? Sorry to klenke for tangent-ing. When we got cable a few months back, I was thinking "OLN! Finally I get to see some of those cool climbing shows. And, of course, the Tour de France."So, every time I turn it on, what's on? FISHING! Every &*%#$@ time I look at OLN, it's a fishing show! You look at their website, and there's all this other stuff listed, but every time I flip to it, it's fishing, perhaps the only outdoor activity more boring to watch than golf.

Werner Herzog (the guy who did Fitzcarraldo, Nosfaratu, etc) made a film about Messner and someone else enchaining two himalayan summits, as I recall.It's called "Gasherbrum - the shining mountain" I saw it at the Harvard Exit in the early 80's when it was still a repertory theater, and well before I got interested in climbing. I checked once at scarecrow video, but they didn't have it there.

In Extreme Alpinism, Twight recommends a shovel that connects to the shaft of an ice axe, but doesn't mention any brands. Anyone know what he's talking about?

They used to have this cool backpacking espresso machine. You should probably have one of those before you go spending money on the chopsticks. Or, those heart-shaped Valentine biners. Are they in the outlet website yet?

I actually know someone who went on an RMI climb with his adult son. They didn’t make it past Muir, but he didn’t complain about it, or at least about the money.It's my guess that when Joe and Bob show up at the bunkhouse, having just flown in from Delaware, if the RMI guide says "it doesn't look good, so we're not going. Here's your rain check" they'd be pretty irate. I'd expect a lot of these type A personalities who've read "Into Thin Air" and watched "Vertical Limit" would opt to give it a shot, since they're already in it for $1000, plus a week of vacation time from work, plane tickets, etc. And, I'd bet that for a lot of folks without much climbing experience, watching the sunrise from Ingraham flats would be just about as dramatic and memorable as summiting. Certainly my first (failed) attempt on Rainier was pretty memorable.

The math that appalled me (I was curious one quiet day at work) is what it would cost you to climb with RMI if you didn’t have any gear. Say you were a marathon runner who wanted to add this to your list of accomplishments. If you had to rent all the gear, it would come to $401 for the three day rental. The rental $$ is due up front, with no refunds within 30 days of the climb. (That includes sleeping bag, parka, ice axe, boots, fleece, sunglasses, thermarest, etc. No bunkhouse coffee cup, though.) The summit climb is $728. First (reasonably, I think) you have to pass their “Climbing School.” If you don’t, they refund you the $728, minus the cost of the climbing school, which is $154. (No refunds on the equipment rental, of course.) Their website goes on to say: 'If adverse weather or route conditions prevent the entire party from reaching Camp Muir on day two, you will receive a $287.00 credit for another Summit Climb. Individuals who are unable to reach Camp Muir or complete their program will not receive a refund.' In other words, if you sign up in September for a climb next July and that weekend happens to be poor weather, but part of the group presses on to Muir, well, you’re out of luck. But if the weather is so bad that no one reaches Muir, you’re only out $441, plus the rental fees. If you’re willing to try again later in the season. Plus, there are charges for changing your scheduled climb, no changes within 20 days, etc etc. I understand they’ve got a pretty full schedule, so they’re charging what the market will bear. But it’s remarkable (to me) that there are that many people out there who are willing to shell out that much $$ on an adventure with so much uncertainty, especially one that involves predicting conditions several months in advance.

quote: Originally posted by mountainguy01: Also, in a capitalistic society we act in a free market economy. So let the highest bidder take the land. The problem with this is that the highest bidder will almost ALWAYS be the bidder who's going to extract and consume the resources, rather than the bidder who wants to protect them. (The occasional exceptions to this rule get plenty of press, but they remain statistically insignificant.) As we've seen in our happy little on-line community here, people are loathe to pay to use the outdoors. So, a timber company who's going to clearcut a forest and sell the logs is nearly always going to be in a more powerful financial position than a conservation group who wants to preserve the forest for deer and butterflies and tree-huggers. I certainly appreciate that people like Paul Allen are willing to pony up some part of their fortunes to preserve bits of natural environment, but that relying on the kindness of billionairs seems like a skewed way to make public policy. And (to pull on the flame-attracting eco-extremist cloak for just a moment) in a free market economy the taxpayers wouldn't be subsidizing the extraction of trees from the public forests, or subisizing grazing on the public rangelands for that matter. It would bother me a bit less if that wood was used domestically, to provide jobs in local mills, but much of the timber that comes from public forests, in particular Tsongas in S. Alaska, which is the most heavily subisidized logging operation in the country, gets shipped overseas to provide jobs in Japan.