forrest_m

erik, i don't know exactly, some kind of gneiss or schist or metamorphosed stew. the e. ridge of inspiration does have the best rock i've encountered in the pickets. phil, your pic looks vaguely familiar and i feel like i should know, but i don't. whitechuck, maybe?

ding, ding, ding, very good. very worthy route, btw

no, gunsight is granite <---- (another hint)

no guesses on mine? here's a hint: the first ascent was by fred beckey. ok, here's a real hint: the face to the right is one of the famous unrepeated lines in the cascades.

not so much obscure, but difficult to get to...

Alex - 2 problems with your request: a) Lyle has put a lot of work into the map which he is eventually intending to produce for profit. I asked him for a copy a while ago and he asked me for $15 - which I was happy to pay. I wouldn't have a problem copying a page or 2 out of a guidebook, but what you are essentially asking for is a copy of the ENTIRE guidebook. I think we should make every effort to support other climbers who are writing books, especially when he's gone to the effort to explore an innovative format. (Its not like he's going to get rich off the think in any case). He would probably be willing to sell you a copy, too, and leave it for you up in Lillooet somewhere if you want it for this weekend. Send me a PM if you want his email address. b) also, the map is 24" x 36", not many people have access to scanners that big.

Wayne - I think there some nice pieces in there. In particular, I think the section about the interaction of the site with real events, such as the Kropp tragedy could really be developed a lot further. (Maybe a less charged example might be the support on the site in developing rescue situations, such as Lambone on Glacier peak, with the inevitable descent into Monday-morning-quarterbacking by anonymous posters after they got back safely) What is seems to me is missing is something that would really give the reader (who was not familiar with cc.com) a sense of what it's like to experience the site. While nothing that you write is untrue, there didn't seem to be anything that would "grab" the attention of someone who wasn't already interested in the subject. Maybe what's missing is a more detailed vignette about one of the more emotional situations. Or maybe a profile of a couple of users (as someone else already suggested) to make a kind of framing device that would tie the whole thing together. I think it would also be interesting to talk about the culture and recurring trends: i.e. the periodic debates about whether spray drives "NW legends" off the site, or the dark side of site (i.e. the piling on in the Anna accident thread or whatever). There was an article in climbing a few years ago about the usenet group rec.climbing that was pretty good; like most good writing, because it was about people, not the technology. Might be worth looking up for reference. Finally, I think the user's guide is a fun idea, but maybe a better organizing structure would be a short review of the different forums, with their individual personalities?

thanks, tim, you guys rule.

Right. Yes. That's what I meant, Offwhite's photo. Oh this internet stuff is just too complicated.

matt, is that the first pitch of clean break?

No matter how carefully you plan, you will buy too much of at least one thing that noone on the trip can stomach. This is especially amusing when it is something that everyone needs regularly, i.e. you were feeling cheap and bought the Costco brand "energy bars". The only upside to this is that in later years, you can bring your friends from the trip into instant and guaranteed hysterics merely by looking them in the eyes and saying the magic words "double chocolate fudge" Bottom line is that you will have some kind of base carbohydrate that will seem like glop after a while - rice, pasta, couscous, whatever, so the best solution is to bring lots of flavor-intense additives. My favorites are curry powder, parmesan cheese and sun-dried tomatoes, all with a high flavor-to-weight ratio. Dwayner, I like the jewish culinary photos. It's about kosher-on-the-glacier, people, go back and re-read the original post.

First, remember that lowering with a gigi is basically impossible if both followers are hanging (though it has no problem HOLDING two fallen followers). So, step 1 is to make sure that the second follower (the one not hanging) is not weighting the rope at all. Step 2, put your hand through the "crossbar" biner and lever it towards the slack side (alternately, you can think of it as lifting the tension side), thus opening it on the tension side and allowing rope to slide through. This may take some practice to be able to do smoothly. You can get add'l leverage by sliding the crossbar biner a bit towards the slack side of the system (thus increasing the length of your lever arm).

Some of my climbing friends pursue the "two separate but equal peer groups" routine, with one group of climbing buddies and another group of non-climbers. The non-climbers only get the briefest glimpse into that part of their life. That never works for me because I always want all my friends to know one another. I'm always inviting my non-climbing friends to slideshows or "mixed" dinners, with the result that a large proportion of them eventually end up wanting to try it sooner or later. At the very least, they understand enough of the basics and terminology not to feel totally left out. Of course, then there are the acquaintances, people at work, etc. My first inclination is, as others have mentioned, to downplay it and avoid the inevitable thin-rainier-air-vertical-cliffhanger-limit conversation. But the thing I've noticed is that a lot of people really are fascinated by climbing. Lets face it, to someone who does neither, a description of climbing a mountain is likely to be a lot more interesting than a description of a round of golf. They may ask "what did you do last weekend" as an idle way to pass the time, but then they get interested. And I've found that, thanks to ESPN and national geographic, the average person on the street knows a lot more about climbing now than they did ten years ago. Anyway you never know... I was at a construction meeting last year and in the pre-meeting chit-chat, the site superintendant asked me what I'd done to mess up my hands so badly. "rock climbing" I responded. "Oh? Where?" Wondering why he cared, I said "oh in the mountains near leavenworth" Really interested now, he asks what peak. Long and short of it is that it turns out that until a jobsite accident screwed up his back, he was pretty seriously into climbing. This chance conversation really improved my life over the next couple months, since he apparently decided that if I could climb colchuck balanced rock, that I must be an ok guy (even if I was an architect), and we got along great for the rest of the job.

I really like climbing with a party of three, and I've found that it is not necessarily any slower than with 2. Lead on double ropes, two followers climb at the same time, belayed with a reverso/plaquette/gigi device that lets you pull up the two ropes separately. Other advantages are that group gear is split 3 ways and one person is free to do extra tasks like take pictures, deal with tangles in the rope, etc. Oh, and you don't get lonely while belaying.

I assume that the people who are saying that there is a fundamental safety difference with "alpine" belaying are mostly joking*. I don't think anyone seriously advocates sloppy habits like taking your brake hand off the rope. I think the real difference is not so much that an alpine belay is "inattentive" but it's definitely less active. While belaying a sport climber, I feel like I'm an active part of the enterprise. I'm paying out slack, I'm pulling it in, I'm anticipating falls and clips, I'm encouraging and spewing beta. On the other hand, when alpine climbing, it is very common to not be able to see your partner. To keep rope drag manageable, the leader is often using long slings and therefore clipping the sling into the rope below their waist and doesn'pull up much or any rope to clip. Communication is difficult. Therefore, an alpine belay is often "inactive" i.e. you just leave a bit of slack in the rope and pay out more as that gets used up. Meanwhile, you are eating a gu, or whatever. * It's true that on easy ground many alpine climbers employ unorthodox belay strategies in the interests of time, and poor anchors are sometimes (though not often) a fact of life in the mountains.

DFA, only children are allowed to use proper names in scrabble.

Courtnay - thanks for the info. My performance goals are weighted towards the endurance end, i.e. technically difficult climbing for 3-5 days in a row. If I understand you, you are saying that ideally, my workout would sometimes attempt to simulate this by being very long and involving both aerobic and muscular endurance, but that doing it very often will be counterproductive for training because the recovery period will be too long. It sounds like for me, if I can get out for a full day of climbing or backcountry skiing one day a week, that will probably satisfy this area of my program. I also like your ideas about stacking heavy and light, rather than trying to do 2 equally difficult workouts at a time. Alternating muscle groups makes sense as well, i.e. the aerobic workout also requires some muscle workout to supply the movement, legs for running, arms for swimming, etc, so a stacked weight workout would work other areas. Of course, this is going to require more organization. I guess that's why people hire personal trainers, instead of just getting info off the internet, eh?

Just a few things to add: Ade and I did the route on Saturday, just ahead of the bad weather (it started just as we topped out.) It took us about 10.5 hours RT from the car. Dan's right that following their tracks up the snow gully saved us some time, although Dan and Tim are both so skinny that they weren't able to really pack out good enough steps for me and Ade. We also didn't leave the car until it was light enough to see so we didn't get lost in the woods. I had done the approach before, which also helped. We also missed the knifeblade crack, the 5.6 gully-to-more mixed climbing seemed like the logical continuation to us. We climbed from the snow gully to the big dead snag in one simul-climbing pitch, then topped out in two rope-stretching pitches before traversing out following Dan & Tim's tracks. The first time I hiked in there, we also followed the big snow gully to the top. I thought that WAS the enigma couloir, but apparently it's not. About halfway up, that gully cuts right, while a huge, super-obvious low-angle dihedral goes straight up. This looked good, and I think it's probably the Washington Dihedral route. As for the route description confusion, I think that the big chockstone that forms the cave that is described in Nelson has fallen out. Apart from this one item, the description fits. I'm not sure where the "crux" was, one of the things that impressed me about the route was how consistent the pitches were. It seemed like there were challenging moves on every pitch, though it is never desperate. I also like the fact that the route threads a seemingly improbable line up a very steep face.

oh crap, you're right, of course. typing too fast, not thinking enough.

Dwayner - I am not trying to slag you, and I'm certainly not trying to imply that I'm ready to run out and do the route tomorrow. But I think there is a big difference between saying that a route is "not for me" and saying that it is a "death route" Slapping the DR label on it sounds to me like what you mean is "I'm not doing it and anyone who does is just stupid." What is a "death route" anyway? A route people have died on? Well, probably not, we don't consider the W. Face of Guye peak or the S. Face of the Tooth to be "death routes" Ok, so is it a route that people could die on? Not that either, because that includes just about everything in this sport. A more serious definition might be routes that have very high objective hazard. Willis Wall anyone? But even very dangerous routes can be safe under certain conditions, or can be made much safer by someone moving very fast. In this regard, I guess I could be persuaded to use the phrase as a descriptor but not to consider it an attribute of the route itself. For example, I might say "Thermogenesis is a death route under anything but very sustained cold conditions" I guess the only kind of route that I feel really deserves the title of Death Route are things like those Jim Beyer aid lines with body-weight-only anchors, and the like. Even under these circumstances, I think it's usually a pretty personal thing: the N. Face of the N. Twin would be a death route for me, because unlike George Lowe, I don't have the skills and experience to adequately protect a route like that. But I don't think that Lowe was suicidal to do it - he just had his shit really really together. Getting back to EDM, my point is that I don't think it qualifies as a "death route" by any of these definitions, and I think that it is a kind of fearmongering to call it one. Obviously it is a very serious route that should only be attempted by very competent parties. But do we really need to call it a death route to make that point? (As for relevance, I guess you're right, I should have just said "dood, you're talking out your ass" )

dwayner wrote: dwayner, i think this is the only relevent statement in your post above. good conditions for the climb (i.e. well iced up) would tend to address your concerns for lack of pro and loose rock. obviously, these conditions don't occur very often, but when they do, I don't see EDM as inherently any more dangerous than other routes of its type. If what you are saying is that your level of risk-tolerance won't justify mixed alpine routes, then you should just say so. The truth is, index has a rep for bad rock, but if it were in the rockies, it would be famous for exceptionally good rock.

col, martha stewart always uses red, so they can charge more for them. actually, they are all the same vegie, they start green, then turn red, then yellow the longer you leave them on the plant. thus, they are more expensive. being mature, the reds and yellows have more sugar and are sweeter/less bitter than the greens.

some more details (in spanish) on xpmexico.com from this article, it sounds like he was about 3/4 of the way up the route Las Auras in El Portrero Chico, an 800 meter route that goes to the summit of one of the peaks in the valley. The web site reports that rock fall "cut the rope he was hanging from", it was unclear to me whether he was at a belay or climbing. I never met Jose, but I noone I know ever had anything but good words for him. RIP.

ok, i'm getting way out my depth here, so if anyone knows better, they should correct me, but here's my guess about how it works: i think that the inversion is really only on the west side. on the east side of the mountains, you have a big mass of mostly homogeneous cold air, contained by the cascades. on the west, you have a big mass of warm air, coming in from the ocean and getting corralled by the mountains on this side. but at the passes, the wall separating these two masses of air is punctured at low elevation, and the cold air is slipping across, and being colder, drops below the warm air, causing the inversion. doesanyone who actually has studied this stuff care to comment?