dougd

it sure doesn't help when you live in a political culture where the label of "flip-flopper" is instantly applied to anyone who dares to change their mind. One man's flip flopper is another man's pragmatist. hard-core folks on either side of the political divide seem to despise pragmatists though, and everyone's playing to their base - there's a pragmatic solution to just about every issue confronting us at the moment (debt, immigration, energy, healthcare, etc), and not a one has a chance in hell of going anywhere it seems I guess that makes me a "centrist"... I prefer pragmatism in national leaders. Being pragmatic suggests one is thinking and not trusting assumptions or preconceived notions totally while making decisions. Honestly seeking the correct course for a given set of circumstances. They won't get it right all the time. They're human still... We have a pragmatic President now. We (those of us who voted for him in '08) sent him to Washington thinking he might be able to get things done that needed done. I have not been pleased with all of it. I don't have to be. It has appeared at times that this pragmatic, thinking man has been jerked around pretty good by political forces at times, but he has some notable accomplishments to his credit in his first term. Taking the broad view, I still like this guy. I think we should keep him and elect more like him to congress if possible. Back on topic, I like the occupy movement. These folks are at least off their duffs and attempting to do something. Yeah, it seems disorganized but if you really want to hear what they are about just listen. And read rob's concise post above. Doing big things has always been hard in America. We like to fight. It's genetic I think. Blame the brits. The sensible thing, it appears to me, is to work for change from within somehow. d

it sure doesn't help when you live in a political culture where the label of "flip-flopper" is instantly applied to anyone who dares to change their mind. One man's flip flopper is another man's pragmatist.

I gave your words to a very conservative friend of mine (well worded and good job).....his response. I get it... I get the fact that social welfare programs are more robust than they have ever been. I get the fact that 40 percent of Americans pay no...NO taxes...40%. I get that liberals want to continue to build this welfare state to reinforce their voter base that is otherwise a minority. I get that the "rich" are the ones creating ALL of the jobs. I get that the occupiers don't actually have a cause... Some protesting capitalism completely or student loans. I get that it's because it's led by the entitlement generation who thinks they deserve something they haven't earned. Everybody has to make their decisions on what they believe and live with those decisions. I have my own strongly held positions. I examine them from time to time... More aligned with rob's post than with kevin's conservative friend's certainly. I have friends who are very conservative, one of which is a climbing partner. One of my very best friends. We talk about politics, comparative religion etc from time to time and it can be difficult. We don't take it personal if we disagree, which often happens... There are no end to the arguments. Haves/have nots, class warfare, consumer protections, entitlements, wars, war' on poverty/drugs/illiteracy not to mention taxes, health care, jobs. Societal equitability... There are so many issues that divide us, and no end to the reasoning and justifications of all the positions. Many of these issues are very complicated, often, people don't really understand what they are arguing about. Some prefer oversimplification... I have been guilty of both at times I suppose when trying to figure out my own positions on things. It can be overwhelming, this rhetorical cacophony... What to do? I suggest doing something, anything positive. Just get off your ass go do something to contribute instead of incessant complaining about how things are or how much better things would be, if only... Since I cannot participate in the republican caucuses (being an avowed independent) on Saturday, I"ll join a voter registration drive. Could we all agree that participating in a positive way is a good thing? It's something to feel good about at the end of the day, whatever it is one does end up doing. Sincerely, d

DPS' advice to ask the Rangers is good. Still, no way of "knowing" "for sure"... If you do end up getting a shelter spot I hope you have good ear plugs. If you want to actually sleep in there that is. Only time I stayed in that shelter was back in '81, two guys were snoring so loud nobody else could sleep. Our summit day started earlier than we wanted but it was cool because we ended up in front of most everyone else on the way up. Coming down was a zoo, there was no avoiding it on the DC... If I had a do over on that climb I'd leave Paradise early and carry a tent up to Ingraham Flats. It's nice up there... d

Great story Dane. As for the pic of the mullet wearin guy in the panties, the only thing worth noting are the fires. I tried not to notice anything else. For the record my (only) wife was my GF, and my wife prior to my discovery that I was a climber. There's some pretty good advice above about introducing someone to climbing IMO. Never was too good at it myself. I did take my wife rock climbing one time after I had accumulated some experience and decent gear. I led the first pitch (duh) to a narrow ledge about 80' off the deck. Up she comes, struggling with the (slightly) bulgy, (somewhat) smooth crux just below the belay and she makes it with a little coaching. While re rigging for the next pitch and admiring the view of the tops of the pine trees below she calmly asks me "how do we exit from here?", and I say "traverse hon"... All she could think of was who was gonna raise our two kids if we both cratered. She was right of course... Like Dane said, she wasn't into it really... On some of my more committing climbs after that I had to push them all out of my head, to focus on what needed done. Had to let em go lest I psych out and get in trouble. I'm sure it was similar for her at times, waiting at home, knowing something about what I was up to. So, from then on I climbed, we took the family trips etc, and she was cool with that, so it worked. Still works actually, we're still together... The kids are out on their own and I still climb... I'm one of the lucky ones. It can work long term but it's pretty rare. Then there was that time I took a guy friend to Smith Rocks for an intro to rock climbing, he went on and on about how he wanted to try it. So I thought ok, nice and easy now, low 5th class crack, and again, I lead the first pitch... Belay's about 80' off the deck and I swear this guy screams like a girl 15' off the ground "LEMMMEEEE DDOOOWWWWWNNNN!!!! If you find someone who ends up wanting to climb once in a while with ya after the first time or two you have them out, you're money ahead for sure... d

Waiting for the votes to roll in for Baby Brother... Any second...

lol

I did not serve at Lejuene but sure was thinking about the guys I knew that did serve there back in the early '70's as I watched the show last night. Really admire MSGT Ensminger's tireless work to expose this. I was not surprised in the least at the Marine Corps' response. But, really, we knew it was a dangerous gig when we signed up didn't we? In my case I didn't think dangers would include ineptitude/criminal behavior by officers and senior enlisted folks. I learned that after I got in... Served my three years, and all of my uniforms and personal military gear went in the base dumpster at the gate when I left and I never looked back. d

Yeah, no doubt. Now I'm "older", and I do use a lot of the weather and avy information available before trips but it can be a detriment if one let's it overtake common sense, thoughtful planning, and experience to cancel trips where dangers can be managed as they should be with or without all the technology, ad nauseam... Anyway, let the handwringing and gnashing of teeth continue. My apologies for interrupting. d

I think alpine climbing was more fun before the "information age" arrived. Another thread, another time perhaps... My, but the handringers are out of their holes aren't they...

Yeah we saw your tent in the morning. Tried to tip toe around it so as not to wake ya. Breaking trail up Polallie ridge wasn't bad. That whole approach is just about all ridge actually... We felt avalanche risk was minimal up to tie in... I had watched the weather and snow accumulations since DarrellW posted up about his climb on the 5th and there wasn't much snowfall in the 2 weeks since then right up until Friday. This, and other weather and avalanche sources figured into our decision to go in and have a look for Sunday. We were prepared for the worst, & had fun. It was a good trip. Hope the pics/info help others... d

I would have liked to get a closer look at conditions on the route. Yes I checked NWAC report before leaving Saturday and I think it was up to "considerable" -7k of course. Honest answers to your questions are "maybe" as we were pretty far from tie in at our high point... I was thinking about avalanche potential for sure. Hard to see but almost looks like cornice forming high on the route... I think if the weather had been more accommodating we would have gone up to tie in, initially taken the left side of the big snow slope, probably dug a pit there and make a decision whether to go higher then. But, we didn't get that far. I take no offense at your questions at all.

Thinking we may have a climbing window Sunday, partner and I slogged up to Tilly Jane A frame Sat night 2/18 in a snow storm and got a few hours rest there. FYI the lock that is supposed to be on the door was "thrown away" by an unknown perpetrator, per Nordic Club member we met next day. Do not expect to be as lucky as we were to find the cabin unlocked. It was a welcome respite from the horrid conditions when we arrived @ 0100 Sun. Pushed on up to the rock hut Sun morning and here's what we found (pics). Decided not to climb the spur due to extreme cold temps and high winds up on the route. Forecasted 10 mph wind at tie in looked to be 20 - 30... There was probably 2' of new snow including 3 - 4' drifts on the hike in. Was a good trail laid in by us the night previous, and dozens of skiers/snow shoers that were coming up as we descended Sun pm. NF and upper spur...

Thanks for sharing, the pics are great! d

Thanks for posting the link Ivan. I probably wouldn't have seen it otherwise. Enjoyed seeing my old friend, still cruising some routes at 67... I was all packed up to do Cooper's Spur this weekend but the weather looks to be total shit so we bagged that idea. For now... d

lol, that may be the best post yet on this thread... Except for mine of course. I broke three ribs in a similar fashion while constructing a house some years back. While decking 1st floor I slipped on adhesive on joist and fell through. Ribcage intersecting said joist did prevent further damage from the fall to the basement below... Life's a bitch, then ya die. Never been much for stats/probability curves either. d

Or, it's a two headed coin. In which case if you're using it in a "for profit" enterprise, would segue us back into the original evaluation of risk/reward/injury/death part of the thread... d

Gotta be right up there with the best (worst?) of em... And yes, I continue to ride. Some people never learn... d

So most people don't actually summit Rainier? I've never climbed it, myself, but that's my understanding... it's another 45 minutes walk around the rim from the dog routes to gain like 8-10' to the actual highest spot, so most people just opt to call it quits at the rim. The finish on the Emmons/Winthrop is pretty close to the top FYI. It's a "dog route" I suppose... My specialty d

my shoulder, which is going to have to be repaired soon, begs to differ Had a shoulder "rebuilt" in '09. Injured in a motorcycle accident originally and aggravated through the years by rock climbing and a pretty serious fall on ice while nordic skiing in '08... It's good as new now though Hope you can avoid surgery on that shoulder minx. It hurt. A lot. Find a good PT if you haven't already... d

We all make decisions on how we want to live our lives. Some of us seek more palpable ways to experience it. Will Gadd's personal risk reassessment due to his friend's paragliding accident is understandable, and a healthy thing for him to do. To be there to see and hear that would shake anyone up. I wish him well and will keep a good thought for him. Climbing can provide a way to self awareness and personal growth that would be tough to attain otherwise. The close calls, epics, joyous moments, and yes, pain in all it's forms will be there. Without all of it, would it be as enriching? Of course not... I hope I don't end up dead on a mountain but It's not hard to think of worse ways to leave this life. I don't think climbing is crazy, or stupid, as I have heard people characterize it over the years. Selfish? Yes. But if approached correctly, honestly, can be life affirming, and a very rewarding avocation. My guess is that people who would lie to themselves about the risks of climbing wouldn't last very long seriously pursuing it. d

I remember well that bit from the top of the chute to about 13,700 last June as pretty benign looking. We didn't need the knowledge of the skier from Utah that fell to his death in one in that neighborhood a couple months prior to know to stay roped up. I've never fallen in a crevasse but navigated some very impressive snow bridges over endlessly deep looking gashes. I remember one on Rainier in '81 that I was probing across vewy vewy carefully, paused to look back at my 17 yr old little brother belaying me, his eyes big as saucers, scared shitless... He was a good partner but I wasn't completely sure right then that he would be able to catch me... We summited and lived to tell the tale and do more climbs before he quit... I have done some soloing on glaciers so I'm certainly not one to judge though... d

A $10,000 bet would be much more meaningful... That's apparently the minimum for some people. People that aren't concerned about the poor due to very adequate safety nets and very very concerned with maximum empathy for the downtrodden middle class... I'm sure mitt has our best interests at heart lol. d

I related to and appreciated very much Will's thoughts on the self deception trap, but more to the self analysis part and really taking a look at why it is that he feels the need to continue activities like climbing and paragliding etc... His "list" is mind boggling. I have thought a lot about the question of why I climb over the years. When I started climbing seriously in the late '70's I had a young family. I climbed with others but also solo'd a lot. The risks were hard to justify but I really felt it was something I had to do then. When I started out I couldn't articulate why, but after a few years of it, I knew very well why. In my late 50's now and my reasons for continuing in mountaineering have evolved back to more of a feeling, than something I can articulate. I am no longer compelled to do it. I'm just not ready to walk away yet from something I really love doing. But I think a lot about when the right time to walk away will be. I'm thankful that I think about why I do what I do, and consider the wisdom of continuing. I think the point, Will's point, is that we should just be honest with ourselves, is an important one. d

It was $15 per person per night when I reserved a night for my wife and I in late Nov 2011 through the Oregon Nordic Club. No $9 web fee then...