dougd

Certainly enough beta here already. I will only add that I am a bit envious, your "first time" venturing onto this really fine mountain, getting full value, going on your own without a guide. Definitely the way to go IMO. Good luck. d

Agree of course about the lies that precipitated the expansion of the Vietnam conflict but, not the detail... http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq120-1.htm And the elephants. Let's be fair, here Oh yes, and the elephants! d

yes, they need therapy to explore their issues and a big group hug. then everything would be all wonderful with them. people are violent. war is violent. the issue is incredibly complex. this thread started b/c of the actions of one individual and has drifted off towards large societal issues. i don't believe there is one neat and tidy answer. i don't believe that the world is ever going to solve its problems without some armed conflict. i sure do wish it would. trying to simplify this issue on cc.com to good/bad yes/no is a bit trite for a group of people who generally seem to be at least moderately intelligent. I have enjoyed the thoughtful parts of the discussion.

I agree. Totally. Military drafts are best instituted to fill needs when demand for warm bodies exceeds supply of volunteers. It is not true in my opinion, that wiser decisions regarding wars are any more likely with a draft in play. The "all volunteer" US Military taken to Iraq by bush jr being only the latest example of the potential for boneheaded decisions by so called leaders... Let's not forget that same man evading the draft during the Vietnam war. It's relatively easy to do with the right connections... That won't change. Having said that I must say some of the finest I served with during the latter part of the Vietnam era were draftees. They didn't run to Canada, and they were drafted into the US Marines. Yes they were disappointed, to say the least, but, they got over it. Comes right down to it, you fight for each other. Not a flag or leader or what ever. Might start out as something like patriotism for most, but when the shit hits the fan it always boils down to your survival, and the one's with you. The one's that need you to do your job. Ivan's right, the ever expanding pool of people living in poverty in America will ensure an adequate supply of warm bodies. d

IE: Herd Mentality... I can rest my case, Minx agrees with me...

to channel my inner kevbone: what does it mean to be "better?" we do have nice digital watches Maybe a topic for another thread but, from a philosophical standpoint, are we "better" in the sense of group dynamics, reactions to fear, threats, violence? Are the only real differences between the human herd and other herds on the planet our cognitive potential, and, thumbs on both paws? Are we really... "better"?

that was the guy i was thinking of in my post above - think i heard him on npr before? the fact that wars were once measured in decades and centuries (and in antiquity hardly named at all, given their lack of clear beginnings or endings) seems illustrative enough of the decline in the general level of violence of our species. as for animals not warring w/ each other, here's a video of 2 lions killing a 3rd for fuckig w/ their territory - wolves do it too - i suppose the semantic argument could be had, but jesus, it's not a revolutionary concept - living things, in a world characterized by scarcity and lawlessness, tend to be rather aggro with all of their neighbors, relations or not [video:youtube] Are you saying in essence that we are no better than any other herd or pack animal?

Grunt, as you well know the UCMJ is much different than civilian criminal courts. The efficacy (or lack therof) of a PTSD and/or insanity defense will be interesting to see. Good that he has civilian and military advocacy. He'll need it all. My heart goes out to the Afghans affected, his family and friends, and yes, him. d

Curious how you see them comparing to NW Alpines pants. The REI stuff on sale at $117.93 is still costlier than these made in America pants at $110: http://nwalpine.com/fastlight-pant I got a pair of NW Alpine's last year. I'm pretty tall, @ 6'5" and was concerned that the large size would not fit so I called them and they sent out a pair for me to try on... I paid for them after trying them on. I thought that was pretty cool of them to do that. d

Good on ya for holding off until you're sure it's ok... d

If your name was Erika, your chances of actually locating a climbing partner here would be greatly enhanced... Good luck, d

Good point. d

somehow i doubt it - jesus, look already at the comparison between sgt bales and pvt manning - manning was stripped naked and kept in a barren cell for weeks on end (and still is, for all i know) on suicide watch, kept awake endlessly - this guy according to the army: "Bales will be in special housing in his own cell and not in a 4-person bay. He will be afforded time outside the cell for hygiene and recreational purposes ... He will be afforded religious support, if desired" but jesus, if there ever was a guy who might be thinking about killing himself? What makes you think he's not on suicide watch? WTF makes you think this is something to make light of? d

FAIL!!! The trouble with spanking is it shows your child that to solve a problem you use violence. Every kid's different. With mine it was important that they understood that I would use force when I felt it was necessary. As a last resort it was used. Respect, effective communication, love, always first... Between the two of them, three spankings total. The boy got two, he was the hard head (got that from his Mother)... They gotta know you'll do it, and that you don't want to. d

Sobo, keep your head on a swivel and don't trust anyone. But, you knew that already. Good luck, d

This is quite a statement (generalization). Whatever this new law actually excludes, expect court challenges. It's how the system works. As for my opinion on what the westboro baptist church does at private, burial ceremonies across this country, I stand by my opinion that it exceeds 1st amendment protections of free speech. This is not a limitless guarantee. And I am comfortable with the Judicial branch of the US Government deciding the limits of the 1st amendment. I can agree that carting these folks off for lawfully assembling went too far. d

What is insane is allowing anyone to stand at a burial place, with the most vile signs, shouting, the most vile things at the top of their lungs while families just want to bury their dead, in peace... Not a matter of preference. It's a matter of basic civility and respect for the grieving, not necessarily the lost. It goes beyond 1st amendment guarantees in my opinion. The 1st was not intended as an anything goes proposition... I prefer neither. Yes I would cart them all off were it up to me... d

I wish...

And, I'd like to second the pics request... d

President Obama is nothing like this moron... Thank goodness http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/rick-santorum-dangers-carbon-dioxide-tell-plant-152230291.html

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner! Johnny, why don't you tell Bill what he's won? Welllllll, Sobo, Bill's won an all-expense paid trip to his own back yard! Plus, a year's supply of camel feed! And don't forget, a copy of our fabulous home game! Hey, thanks for playing Geography Sux, Bill! Back to you, Sobo! damn, I really thought I had it won...

bumfuck egypt gotta be it, it has an e and everything

Postholing sucks. For everyone... JB if you're in PDX there's always Larch Mt... 14mi R/T from Multnomah Falls and is a great training hike. Shouldn't be too much snow up there this year... I miss Portland sometimes. d

it sure doesn't help when you live in a political culture where the label of "flip-flopper" is instantly applied to anyone who dares to change their mind. One man's flip flopper is another man's pragmatist. hard-core folks on either side of the political divide seem to despise pragmatists though, and everyone's playing to their base - there's a pragmatic solution to just about every issue confronting us at the moment (debt, immigration, energy, healthcare, etc), and not a one has a chance in hell of going anywhere it seems I guess that makes me a "centrist"... I prefer pragmatism in national leaders. Being pragmatic suggests one is thinking and not trusting assumptions or preconceived notions totally while making decisions. Honestly seeking the correct course for a given set of circumstances. They won't get it right all the time. They're human still... We have a pragmatic President now. We (those of us who voted for him in '08) sent him to Washington thinking he might be able to get things done that needed done. I have not been pleased with all of it. I don't have to be. It has appeared at times that this pragmatic, thinking man has been jerked around pretty good by political forces at times, but he has some notable accomplishments to his credit in his first term. Taking the broad view, I still like this guy. I think we should keep him and elect more like him to congress if possible. Back on topic, I like the occupy movement. These folks are at least off their duffs and attempting to do something. Yeah, it seems disorganized but if you really want to hear what they are about just listen. And read rob's concise post above. Doing big things has always been hard in America. We like to fight. It's genetic I think. Blame the brits. The sensible thing, it appears to me, is to work for change from within somehow. d

it sure doesn't help when you live in a political culture where the label of "flip-flopper" is instantly applied to anyone who dares to change their mind. One man's flip flopper is another man's pragmatist.